(1-VT) First tier resources visible but not usable at game start

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cidk2000

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Id not like this. but at turn one with no technology what would you actually know or see on the map; for example i can see amber and gems should i see horses ? fish etc? should i see deer? on another game i think it was Empire Earth 2 or Rise of Nations i believe they put rocks on unknown resources and as science levelled up you could use / see them.

Just to understand though would have all resources visible including Uranium/oil/coal/Aluminium be a good thing? for me no i wouldnt turn on the option as I could theoretically beat the AI to the limited piles as the AI doesnt see them as use until the AI has got to said tech. But useful for forward planning - Advantage Human massivly

If all resource Lux/Bonus/Strat/etc was reveal by tech I could agree with as turn 1 you basically know just agriculture that doesnt tell you how to pick a banana off the tree or cut it off theoretically bananas could reveal at cut jungle (trapping)

i find this proposal may give an advantage to humans too much
 

CppMaster

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Id not like this. but at turn one with no technology what would you actually know or see on the map; for example i can see amber and gems should i see horses ? fish etc? should i see deer? on another game i think it was Empire Earth 2 or Rise of Nations i believe they put rocks on unknown resources and as science levelled up you could use / see them.

Just to understand though would have all resources visible including Uranium/oil/coal/Aluminium be a good thing? for me no i wouldnt turn on the option as I could theoretically beat the AI to the limited piles as the AI doesnt see them as use until the AI has got to said tech. But useful for forward planning - Advantage Human massivly

If all resource Lux/Bonus/Strat/etc was reveal by tech I could agree with as turn 1 you basically know just agriculture that doesnt tell you how to pick a banana off the tree or cut it off theoretically bananas could reveal at cut jungle (trapping)

i find this proposal may give an advantage to humans too much
Why should AI not see it even human can?
 

CppMaster

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The AI doesn't need to remember them if it'd see them. It's not a hidden information, so there is no reason to hid them from AI.
 

Rekk

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This proposal gives you vision of of resources for one turn only. The player can remember or take a screenshot of the map and remember where everything is for later turns. The AI can't.
 

cidk2000

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Why should AI not see it even human can?
Sorry I wasn't clear I meant AI work on numbers if the tile has low yields because the resource was unlocked by tech only but only placeholder the Ai would just see desert/plain/grassland etc yields but not future yields (unless future planning its in its programming /database) I can't see how this benefits the AI only human player
 

ma_kuh

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Can we remove "while first city hasn't been settled" from the proposal? It sounds like it's the simplest solution that people can gravitate around. I don't know if OP agrees, but secondly I think "just bonus resources" would be a good amendment that has some backing as well. Thirdly, there was a brief mention of whether this should be an advanced option or not; if it makes it more likely to pass, I'm in favor of making this and advanced option, but I don't know if that deters any would-be coders from sponsoring the change.
 

balparmak

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If anyone's interested in modmoding this, check ResourceIconGenerator and WorldAnchor luas, and IGE in general, there may be a way to display the icons before resources are revealed by tech, which would bypass any issues with yields. Probably there's a "if the resource is revealed to the player, show icon" check for each resource tile, you should be able to work around this by keeping some resources or types of resources (i.e. bonus) out. Or related resources can be automatically added to all players' resource lists at the game start, I feel like that shouldn't affect yields either.
Other than that, I guess the closest you can get to this would be by moving all "resource to terrain bonuses" to "improvement to resource bonuses", i.e. unimproved resources wouldn't buff tiles. Would change the balance quite a bit though.
 
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cidk2000

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If anyone's interested in modmoding this, check ResourceIconGenerator and WorldAnchor luas, and IGE in general, there may be a way to display the icons before resources are revealed by tech, which would bypass any issues with yields. Probably there's a "if the resource is revealed to the player, show icon" check for each resource tile, you should be able to work around this by keeping some resources or types of resources (i.e. bonus) out. Or related resources can be automatically added to all players' resource lists at the game start, I feel like that shouldn't affect yields either.
Other than that, I guess the closest you can get to this would be by moving all "resource to terrain bonuses" to "improvement to resource bonuses", i.e. unimproved resources wouldn't buff tiles. Would change the balance quite a bit though.
that still would give the human advantage early game to get the early spots and the AI dont acknowledge icons only numbers id prefer not knowing and AI equally not knowing as it would be surprise when that tech is researched and it reveals in borders or out of borders and in future conflict with AI. Me personally cannot agree with any changes that give the human advantage early doors it keeps the game fun. Just my Opinon
 

rkkn

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Can we remove "while first city hasn't been settled" from the proposal? It sounds like it's the simplest solution that people can gravitate around. I don't know if OP agrees, but secondly I think "just bonus resources" would be a good amendment that has some backing as well.
yeah I am gonna go ahead and edit it. Though as for "just bonus resources", I think horses should be included as well. It fits thematically. Horses are just as visible as cows, being large animals and all. Unlike iron.
 

ma_kuh

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Only showing bonus resources feels more consistent to me, rather than adding one strategic resource but no others. As for thematic, I think it's perfectly reasonable to treat all four-legged animals as food until you start learning the difference between them (Animal Husbandry).
 

rkkn

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I think it's perfectly reasonable to treat all four-legged animals as food until you start learning the difference between them (Animal Husbandry).
as do I
Indeed, you'd probably lump horses into the same category as cattle, until you start trying to domesticate them, at which point you realize that they are better suited for something else. That in no way indicates that you previously would not notice them or would think they aren't worth paying attention to (represented by not showing up on the map).

as for there being a single strategic mixed in with bonus resources... well, shrug. They are all in the same place on the tech tree, and they are the same thematically. Can't get 100% consistency in all categories no matter which way you do it. My opinion is that those two categories are more important in this instance. If there were bonus resources that unlocked later (kinda weird that there aren't any, now that I think about it) then they'd be excluded too.
 
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cidk2000

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as do I
Indeed, you'd probably lump horses into the same category as cattle, until you start trying to domesticate them, at which point you realize that they are better suited for something else. That in no way indicates that you previously would not notice them or would think they aren't worth paying attention to (represented by not showing up on the map).

as for there being a single strategic mixed in with bonus resources... well, shrug. They are all in the same place on the tech tree, and they are the same thematically. Can't get 100% consistency in all categories no matter which way you do it. My opinion is that those two categories are more important in this instance. If there were bonus resources that unlocked later (kinda weird that there aren't any, now that I think about it) then they'd be excluded too.
Thats a good point, if we are talking about realism, my concern is the AI how does the AI see horses at Agriculture... Player sees/plans future strategic for warfare AI sees 2 food yield and no forward planning. Is this not out of bounds for the game engine/AI to program? are we limited by the DLL/Engine/AI ? Im firmly in the camp AI vs Player should be equal down the line all the way to victory condition. Does the DLL/Engine/AI allow the AI the same advantages as player if it can im all for the proposal if it doesnt give the player any advantage over AI
 

rkkn

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my concern is the AI how does the AI see horses at Agriculture... Player sees/plans future strategic for warfare AI sees 2 food yield and no forward planning.
Is that how it works? Does the AI not take upgrades into account? For instance, when settling a new city in classical era, does the AI see a hill and think "2 yield tile", or does it see a hill and think "this will be 5 production once I build a forge and mine here". Moreover, how does the AI choose techs? Does it ever think "I have a lot of hills/mines, so Iron Working (or, in medieval, Steel) would be good".

It seems fairly straightforward for the AI to be able to say "there are horses here, I can use them later," and assign some value to it.
But this game's AI stuff is outside of my knowledge.
 

cidk2000

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Is that how it works? Does the AI not take upgrades into account? For instance, when settling a new city in classical era, does the AI see a hill and think "2 yield tile", or does it see a hill and think "this will be 5 production once I build a forge and mine here". Moreover, how does the AI choose techs? Does it ever think "I have a lot of hills/mines, so Iron Working (or, in medieval, Steel) would be good".

It seems fairly straightforward for the AI to be able to say "there are horses here, I can use them later," and assign some value to it.
But this game's AI stuff is outside of my knowledge.
I don't know for absolute certainty I'm speculating for the most part but you raise good points and no doubt TPTB will see if the programming is viable and if the player doesn't get advantage from it. Having the option strategic Balance does that not put a horse and a Iron within tile distances from the capital?
 

Recursive

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Proposal vetoed.

Reason:
This is a much more difficult task to code than it may seem; it would cause too many conflicts and potential bugs in the DLL, and as such is out of scope for the mod.
 
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