10 Reasons Why Conquests Went Wrong

[DJ Bonebraker]

I thought the AI wasn't good at hidden nationality units???

Far from it. If there are hidden nationality land units, the AI will pump them out like there's no tomorrow. As a matter of fact, the reason I got my first ever Military Great leader in my Tweaked out mod is because the AI kept sending a steady stream of Mercenaries at one of my cities, and it took only three turns for my veteran infantry to go to Elite and elite* (generated a GL) I had a pretty good idea of whose mercs they were, since the Dutch were the only other civ on that continent, but we were in a MPP, and I couldn't outright declare war without ruining my reputation, so I just built some mercs of my own and had them pick of the Dutch mercs as they came accross the border (Occasionaly I'd send in one or two to grab some unguarded Dutch workers or engineers). Still, it was nothing compared to what I had to put up with from the Arabs and the Dutch, who sent at least a dozen mercs on raiding parties into my territory every turn. Made the game interesting and kept me on my toes, to say the least.

Antrine, about your barbs: I like some of those ideas, but keep in mind about what my Final Fantasy mod is based on. By the time you get to the modern age, your units are the equivalent of Lv 99 Final Fantasy Charchachters (one of whom could easily take over a third world country). I doubt that even your toughest Barb could stand up to some of the ultra-high end units late game. For instance there's the Makou Cannon, which is an immobile artillery unit with 0 attack, 30 def, 100 bombardment strength, a 30 tile lethal bomardment range and the ability to be airlifted between cities with airports. Okay, before you say that's overpowered, keep in mind that this unit (not wonder or small wonder, but unit) costs 1500 shields. In addition, there's the modern airships (24(30)/18/2, all terrain as roads), Heavy Tanks (Basically the same as the Modern armor, but can bombard enemy units), Samurai (24/12/2), Chocobo Dragoons (same as Samurai, but +1 movement), Dragoons (18(20)/18/2), and those are just the basic offensive units. My sea barbarian units are also powerful (Ghost Ships with the ability to enslave defeated units into more Ghost ships), and I've regularly lost Galleassi (basically a slightly tougher version of the Caravel with +1 transport) and even 1 or 2 heavy galleasi (merged the stats of the Galleon and Frigate, +1 transport) to these monsters. I haven't even mentioned the advanced barbarians: the Sweepers (FF VII mecha), which have a bombardment, 5/5/2. I actually get nervous when I see a horde of those suckers heading toward one of my cities, since they fairly regularly defeat even the strongest ancient age defender (archer, 2/3/1), and even the strongest ancient age offensive unit may not be enough to take them out.

 

[thestonesfan]

In my mind, the three areas which give the human a tremendous advantage is the use of artillery, prebuilding for wonders, and the use of armies. The first two have been around since the first incarnation of civ3, so I think Conquests has really only upset the balance in one area, the armies.

Sure, the planes are more powerful, but the AI DOES use them, unlike artillery. The AI also likes to build anti-air units, but they just aren't very effective units.

Lethal bombardment is pretty much a non-issue, I think. In fact, I say it actually hurts the savvy player. Now, I can't consistently bomb units into the red without killing many of them. Before, I would get them in the red, then attack with the land units for easy elites. I still can do it, it's just not as potent since many units die from the bombing.

Pre-build should be taken out of the game. It's cheating, no bones about it.

 

[Antrine]

Actually, the issue hangs on the mixture of units available to build at any one time, what mixture is given to the AI's at pre-start etc. I have found that meeting these criteria carefully produces a wonderful and balanced use of hidden nationality and invisible units throughout the game.

 

[genghis_khev]

In my mind, the three areas which give the human a tremendous advantage is the use of artillery, prebuilding for wonders, and the use of armies. The first two have been around since the first incarnation of civ3, so I think Conquests has really only upset the balance in one area, the armies.

Prebuilds have been arround since Civ1. Trust me!!

Pre-build should be taken out of the game. It's cheating, no bones about it.

Err... OK you got me there! Trouble is that if prebuilds are taken out and you are not first to a wonder then you should loose those shields. This would be highly annoying (I've missed wonders before but under 5 turns before) but it would stop the continual wonder cascade and make building more than one wonder at a time worthwhile! Personally though I say prebuilds are not a problem.

 

[Justus II]

Pre-build should be taken out of the game. It's cheating, no bones about it.

This is one of my hot-button issues. I agree that Pre-builds are very unbalancing, and certainly give the humans an unfair advantage over the AI. I would love to see the penalties for changing builds brought back from Civ2 (half the shields unless it was within the same class of build), with maybe some fine-tuning. I'd even be satisfied with no pre-builds at all, if that were the decision.

However, that was not their decision, in fact they've removed all the previous restrictions and penalties on pre-builds, so while I may not like it, it is certainly an intended (and therefore valid) aspect of the game, and is NOT cheating.

 

[kryszcztov]

I consider pre-builds no cheating at all in Civ3. But I'd like it to be totally removed in Civ4, because the more I play this game, the less I enjoy this feature. I think it makes no realistic sense at all, and it would be fair to the civ scientifically ahead of everyone (but of course you have to take production into account). The same goes for rushing wonders : there should be no way of doing it in my ideal game. I hope Civ4 will be like that.

 

[Kemal]

Another thing about prebuilds, while it can't time them these are actually quite useful (and necessary IMHO) for the AI as well. If abandoning a building project would empty the shield box, this would result in terrible, and probably highly exploitable by the human player, shield losses for the AI civs, for instance all of them start working on the pyramids, one finishes it and all other had it nearly finished... ok they will have to abandon, 6x 400 = nearly 2400 AI shields lost (plus a ton of shields for the civ finishing the pyramids on (nearly) completed granaries as well.. and they all start up another wonder again in their capital, for instance great library.. same recipe, another 2400 AI shields lost, while of course the human would never start these wonders in the first place since it knows it won't be able to get them. With those two wonders, one could get a potential (if tech research is well coordinated) shield advantage over each seperate AI at the start of the medieval era of about 700-800 shields! Ok it's less on higher difficulties, but still.

Plus, if there was to be no more cascading, probably most cities of the AI will be stuck at building wonders throughout the ancient age, when there ar plenty of those available, greatly hindering them in expansion and development.

And then construction on bigger wonders such as Sun Tzu and Leo's hasn't even started...

 

[Antrine]

Well, I think the whole concept of Great Wonders sucks. Competing for wonders is bad game play period! I hated it in CIVII and when I saw Conquests Editor with small wonders I rejoiced exceedingly. Now I have modded to a sea of small wonders, no Great Wonders at all. So all the above considerations are now mute. We all get powerful and watch those neighbors!

 

[genghis_khev]

I like the concept of Great Wonders but it is amaizing how often the AI "pips me to the post" especially when I start the the thing first!! Again in my current game I missed out on Sistine Chapel by 3 turns and because of cascade I can kiss Bach's Cathedral goodbye as well!! (There was of couse a few turns gap between SC being finished and BC becoming available (to me, the Koreans had it already) and the construction was in my capitol (no palace available!) so all I got a VERY EXPENSIVE Cathedral! (and somewhat angry!))

If you want to sort out this problem just impose a mandatory 50% shield penalty for switcing production regardless of old and new production! If you miss one wonder but go for another you loose 50% of the shields. Barbs turn up on your borders: settler => spearmen: 50% shields. Any change has this penalty, ANY! That will limit the usefullness of prebuilds AND limit cascade! Why should the AI (or the player for that matter) get a cheep (often better) wonder just 'cos they could build quick enough!

50%, no arguements! Its fair and unlike some other rules it makes sence!!

As for Antine's Idea of no Great wonders, I understand where you are coming from but can't quite bring myself to agree fully. I would however change to have a few GREAT (i.e. global not continental) wonders with many more small wonders.

Take Sun Tzu's application in feudal Japan / Shogun era. That era would have been far less bloody and over quicker if Sun Tzu truely was a Great Wonder (i.e. Only 1 side had it) but as all the Shoguns (and I'm guessing their generals (and probably more!)) had studied Sun Tzu no one had an overall dominant strategy or a clear edge over their enemies.

May be each Great wonder should be global but once it is built other civs can then build a small wonder for "continental" effects. Again to take Sun Tzu, why do troops across 1 tile of water not understand the texts? Is it a translation problem? Why can Smith pay for an infinite number of marketplaces on the mainland but not the one on the small island where it is needed most?

Well thats my 2p (not $0.02 or 0.02eu). I'm now off to liberate MY wonders from the Koreans, who I hate (in civ! I'm sure Koreans are really very nice and would not try to rob me blind!)

 

[akots]

... Why should the AI (or the player for that matter) get a cheep (often better) wonder just 'cos they could build quick enough! ...

IMO, this is the immanent feature of the game which is build fast enough, faster than other players and the AI. It is absolutely required to master this in order to master the game.

There was already a game with penalty for switching and with different corruption model which is Civ2. You can always play that, it is still in Wallmart and costs only 5 bucks! It has been a great game and it still is!

The discussion is actually about what went wrong in C3C compared to vanilla/PTW and not generally about how the players are unhappy with the game ... unlike the starting posts of Sulla and SirPleb which show the great understanding of the game mechanics and are very reasonable in general ...

 

[genghis_khev]

Sorry akots that should have obvoiusly been:
Why should the AI (or the player for that matter) get a cheep (often better) wonder just 'cos they could NOT build quick enough!

Meaning:
You start a wonder (A) and then after researching a new tech, say 10 turns later you start another (B). The computer also starts wonder (A) after you (say 5 turns) but does not get the new tech until you have all but completed wonder (A) and are a good way into wonder (B). You complete Wonder (A), the AI then switches and winds up completing wonder (B) usually a few turns before you forcing you to change to somtimes a normal improvement which has just cost you 4 * the shields it should have.

 

[Antrine]

The only thing that redeems both CIVII and CIVIII/Conquests IS the great game editors! How, with all the variables and tastes can some one person or small group of people dictate Vanilla which we must all then eat? Less and less are games any good straight out of the box. Early on in computization of board games and board like games; it was just wonderful to experience any AI and an in game consol with its new niffty automations. Gee I am not throwing the dice or looking up endless tables.

This is past and so is our patience for any vanilla. Any complaint 'the game editor' can address is not a real complaint, it is merely subjective opinion as are my assertions concerning Major Wonders. I am pleased to play my way and pay the modder price of learning with hours upon hours game developing.

Mastering game balance once you pull up the hood and start tinkering is far more arduous than mastering/playing any vanilla. This is prejudice I concede, however well founded.

 

[akots]

Both of you Antrine and GK don't belong to civfanatics IMvHO. You just don't like the game. As it has been pointed out earlier in endless discussions with Bello and many others. Go play a succession game or GOTM so that you may enjoy the game and udnerstand its features. No offense to anyone.

 

[Hygro]

akots thats rediculous. Especially since you said your oppinion was very humble and you didn't mean any offense but still gave it a laugh.

On top of that, I disagree. Modding makes them civfanatics.

 

[Antrine]

Ok 'akots' with 1515 posts via 'Hygro' with 5025 posts! And me, a mere 175 now. I feel I am betwixt Titans .

Actually, the problem is I like Conquests Game Editor, without that I would not purchased it, period. I'd stayed in CIV2. With it's much touted release I purchased, after I read about the game editor. My prejudices run straight toward the game editor. I like map making. Scenario creating, unit use and balance to emulate ancient cultures the 'feeling of being there'. Conquests is a vehicle for the feeling of being there, just as CIV2 was, one world upon another. It definately suits a 'writer' and 'historian'.

Firaxis sold Conquest with well touted bells and whistles. They came in later and promised to make good as they had fallen short on same. They bugged out, unprofessionally! There is no one yet to take their place. It will happen though, then I will be pleased to move on.

The game is stable, versitle and useful but dissappointing as above mentioned. Firaxis is not really the issue any more, the game is close, could be brought closer to wonderful yet, small-minded circumstances seem to prevent this.

Well I am not affended, just miffed at these crossroads...

The future lies in our hearts coiled like a snake, readied so too await I for my 'holodeck'.

 

[genghis_khev]

akots please don't take that kind of attitude. I may not be the best player in the world (I'd be the last to claim this!) and as you can see I only have 211 post at my last count but I've been playing civ since civ1 back in very early '90s so I do belong here.

As for the game, yeah, I love it, but there are some inherrant problems. Civ3 is not perfect, would you not agree? The game is far from flawed beyond enjoyment but there are certain bugs / problems that even the hard core fans dislike.

Now if you would like a thread purely for "expert players" only please feel free to start one. If you request that you only post to said thread if you play on X difficulty, have beaten Y level, have achieved a minimum of Z score, go for it. I will respect that and view but not post to that thread. I do get the feeling however that a lot of the other "expert players" would not post to this thread either. This site is based upon shared experience of all players be you a civ god or civ peasant!

Now if there is anything in this or any of my posts you are offended by I'm sorry. If there is anything you disagree with, post back and lets discuss them. I know I have learn loads from this site and I keep coming back 'cos I keep learning.

Don't however take some kind of superior attitude, please. I would say that as expert a player you think you are there are probable many people who post here who have far more experience.

 

[DJ Bonebraker]

This is one of my hot-button issues. I agree that Pre-builds are very unbalancing, and certainly give the humans an unfair advantage over the AI. I would love to see the penalties for changing builds brought back from Civ2 (half the shields unless it was within the same class of build), with maybe some fine-tuning. I'd even be satisfied with no pre-builds at all, if that were the decision.

However, that was not their decision, in fact they've removed all the previous restrictions and penalties on pre-builds, so while I may not like it, it is certainly an intended (and therefore valid) aspect of the game, and is NOT cheating.

Sure, go ahead and get rid of pre-builds, impose that 50% shield loss penalty, I only have one condition though: Bring back the Caravans/Freight That was the only thing that made building wonders possible/worthwhile in Civ II ToT, since the AI almost always beat you to it on Emperor level otherwise. That's one of the things that always annoyed me about Civ III: You could only speed up a wonder project by getting these great leaders to randomly appear (and with my extremely bad luck, random events aren't very helpful).

 

[Cartouche Bee]

There was really only one reason Conquests went wrong.

They invited/approved alot of knowledgeable people to participate in the beta testing and then unwittingly ignored the findings/concerns.

 

[genghis_khev]

Bring back the Caravans/Freight

I would agree with this 100%

 

[Gen]

When it comes to rushing wonders, caravans were just early form of great leaders. You just needed more of them but they were buildable and cheap. Thus player was almost guaranteed to get every wonder he wanted. I hated that feature.

The only fair solution to wonder races problem is eliminate rushing completely, in any form and eliminate AI production bonus when building wonders. Only then it would be fair deal.