.

I did not read all 172 post, so sorry if I missed this suggestion. I would like to see Zone of Control for certain units. When a unit is on sentry it should stop movement or even have opportunity fire as a unit moves by. I don't know how many of you played The Perfect General game, but I liked how it was implemented in TPG.
 
Has anyone playtested this yet? Because I tried it, and the defending unit would allways retreat with a strength of 0.0.
 
1 is rounded to 0??? It cant be, I often see units with .2 health or less and its not rounded down.
 
oh I though you were talking strength, my bad :mischief:
 
Just to say... i had a scout at 0.0 health two or three times, and some things run (such as a barb axeman) and ends up closer to my city. (then i made the great wall). But that is a good thing, as it allows me to double the experience. And just as a note. I love Ironworking Impi's :D.
 
You said something about specialist not being worthwile. I have seen people in multiplayer spamming farms and making serious tech while slaving a huge army. Actually farms can be good for multiplayer, easy to rebuild when pillaged, and can slave an army pretty quick in war. I like to cottage, think it is still better. However GPing with phi trait and getting wonder like Great Library and national epic can make it a deadly tactic.

Now I am going to be biased, because I play civ for multiplayer. Never was amused against playing computer, as it is not smart, easily manipulated, and its alot more fun playing with living people. What I see wrong in Civ mostly is warfare.

Things I would like to see:
-Artillery and planes able to bomb roads. (this is a big one)
-Espionage worked alot better in civ3 Period. (another big one)
-Bring back paratroopers, cruise missles.
-Maps need a tuneup. Would like to see a map like fractal, but one that didnt end in islands. A big random pangea/continent type thing. I liked the pangea in civ3 alot more, it was more random. Civ4 its just a circle. Bring back the randomness of maps that was in civ3. We have enough pre-built maps like inland, anyone can build those. But what Civ4 or Civ5 needs is a really good random map generator, some maps are quite boring in their non irreqularity. Best things I like about civ is getting scouts out, knowing your land, having sentry units out. Knowing the land deafets the purpose, making the game all that much dull. This really comes from a mp point of view, where warfare is best played in the field where anything can happen if your not prepared.
-Units having bonus against our units is a nice edition I geuss. Though it takes out the part in Civ where you can't see whats in your enemies city without espionage. But I think we should incorporate def and atk values from civ3. Like a sword for instance will get 25 percent while defending, while a spear will get plus 25 percent when defending. Adds more complexity to the game imo, while not making it not a one-demensional strategy.
-Airfields, outposts, colonies.
-I don't know who made Modern Warfare, but please rebalance the units. Nukes, Modern Armor, Stealth Bombers, Mech Infantry, gunships, and battleships need to be way more expensive. Being Rubber into the mix, modern units should need alot of resources. Making one turn battleships and modern armors is dumb; with tons of overflow may I add. Buying 8 nukes a turn with 10 cities is dumb. These units need to be way more expensive. With this we would get better balance with advanced units. The Super Modern armor would need more Resource and be more expensive... While marines or tow(reinvite) would be less expnensive, weaker, but cost less or just a bit less. For those who love spamming nukes, bring back the nuclear submarine. Can get same price nukes as currently in game but limited range. However ICBM should be astronomical price, and so should the nuclear sub. ICBM spam can make the game go very dull, very quick. This is mainly for Modern and beyond.
-Culture Bomb and culture in general too big. Culture bomb should give only 60 percent level. 20 percent level 5 culture is fine. 40 Percent level though should be 100. 60 Percent culture should be 1000. and 80 percent 5000 culture. From then on doesnt really matter. But getting a 60 percent culture city so fast takes a way alot from gameplay, should only be allowed so quickly to get 60 percent through culture bomb. Culture Bomb would only give you 60 percent also only which I think is fair.
-Duplicate leaders is dumb imo, I say get rid of all the duplicate leaders. Makes the game boring if I may say. Is there fun in dealing with the same two civs, with same UU?
-Would like to see regicide back under a few conditions though. Bombers can shoot him, cruise missles, and paradroppers. This would be scenario used primarlily for future so having these advanced units makes it easier to catch the king. He cannot be seen inside a city with recon. However he can be seen if you steal enemy plans. Its a very fun thing that was played in civ3 future and even from ancient start. If you lose your king, your dead. Two move king that can't use roads or railroads sounds fair. Espionage would of course also have to revert back to civ3, maybe partly in some fashion so you can look into cities earlier etc. too see the hidden king. Nerverthless it would be a very nice add.
-Another balance issue I find, why warrior has 2 strength.. it ruins everything.
Scout should not be able to defend. Warrior should have one strength, archer, chariot, and cat should be 2 strength, spear and axe should be 3 strength, Horse archer should be 4 strength and swordsman should be 5 strength. The rest of course should be lowered in accordance. This simplification of numbers makes battle less "luck orientated" and has no unneccessary complexities.
-Cats are slightly overpowered in anc start, and are used as a stack of death. Cats should be more limited to collateral damage rather than attacking units one for one and take cities.
-Would like too see the 2 move Gallic Swordsman. The Persian Immortal in civ3 was such an awesome unit as well.
-(this debateable, these are only opinions)Food Resources should all be lowered one food point and should not give extra food when worked. Too easy too grow in this game imo, then slave, then regrow as fast as you slaved. Floodplains thought with its health problems are wayy to nice, make some sporatic stariving. Grasslands takes too much of a backseat too floodplains, they too good.
-This is mainly for mp. In future why are settlers costing less? Its way too easy to expand with these cheap settlers. Make settlers cost the same as they do in anc, same goes for workers.
-Allow galleys too cross rivers, but have a good chance of sinking. I saw a great game once in mp. It was surely thought this person was going to win with his points, but little did he know someone crossed a stack of galleys across the ocean! It was one city elimination and it was very exciting. Kinda dumb you can't go into ocean, but you can in real life hehe.
-Why can't you enter your enemies land without declaring war. Common bring the fun back to civ where you could mess around with your neigbours or have a very good relation. Don't restrict unrealistic things hehe.
-Also unit graphics imo look better in civ3, my opinion.

Mainly I think civ4 warfare is what needs the most tune-up. Civ4 economy is pretty good, of course more can be added to make it more complex and more strategic. But Civ4 warfare and espionage is what is lacking, so thats where I concentrated.
 
How about giving military units the ability to build stuff? Simple stuff, roads, basic fortifications. From the Roman legions to modern construction batallions, combat engineers.

Another thing, manpower. Those guys wielding the swords have to come from someplace, right? Stolen, er, borrowed from Paradox-games. The game allready calculates population, should be simple to convert this to Manpower, every Archer needing X-amount of manpower to be built. Things like mobilization, conscription and the likes would increase this amount.

Just a thought, might give larger empires too great of an advantage. Some way for smaller nations to invest in quality instead of quantity would be nice, though I'm drawing a blank as to how...
 
can you post reserves and morale as a mod component
 
Things I would like to see:
-Artillery and planes able to bomb roads. (this is a big one)
-Espionage worked alot better in civ3 Period. (another big one)
-Bring back paratroopers, cruise missles.

you got all that in one. though i dont really agree on those food suggestions... as said above too, some units should be more flexible and make roads, like the legionaries* Praetorian.

@ Tattila - your answer would be in civics. E.G. "Protective Enlistment" = +3 XP in all cities, but +50% City maintenence cost.

Small nations triumph in defense. though in history, usually the bigger country with the bigger army wins. :D
 
-I don't know who made Modern Warfare, but please rebalance the units. Nukes, Modern Armor, Stealth Bombers, Mech Infantry, gunships, and battleships need to be way more expensive. Being Rubber into the mix, modern units should need alot of resources. Making one turn battleships and modern armors is dumb; with tons of overflow may I add. Buying 8 nukes a turn with 10 cities is dumb. These units need to be way more expensive. With this we would get better balance with advanced units. The Super Modern armor would need more Resource and be more expensive... While marines or tow(reinvite) would be less expnensive, weaker, but cost less or just a bit less. For those who love spamming nukes, bring back the nuclear submarine. Can get same price nukes as currently in game but limited range. However ICBM should be astronomical price, and so should the nuclear sub. ICBM spam can make the game go very dull, very quick. This is mainly for Modern and beyond.

Why are you complaining about another mod here? I don't think I've yet managed to get modern armors and battleships in one turn in an unmodded game. Dunno about ICBM, never used it nor had it used on me. Then again, I've only played against the computer.

-Duplicate leaders is dumb imo, I say get rid of all the duplicate leaders. Makes the game boring if I may say. Is there fun in dealing with the same two civs, with same UU?

Duplicate leaders? Where? Never seen 'em. Maybe I've missed something, but as far as I know, the game doesn't allow the same civ in a game twice.

-Another balance issue I find, why warrior has 2 strength.. it ruins everything.
Scout should not be able to defend. Warrior should have one strength, archer, chariot, and cat should be 2 strength, spear and axe should be 3 strength, Horse archer should be 4 strength and swordsman should be 5 strength. The rest of course should be lowered in accordance. This simplification of numbers makes battle less "luck orientated" and has no unneccessary complexities.

This I don't get at all. How would compacting the strength scale make battles less luck-oriented? If anything, luck will be a larger factor since unit strengths are closer together. And how come warrior having a strength of 2 ruins "everything"?

-Cats are slightly overpowered in anc start, and are used as a stack of death. Cats should be more limited to collateral damage rather than attacking units one for one and take cities.

This one I agree with. Catapults should not be able to attack nor defend directly.

-(this debateable, these are only opinions)Food Resources should all be lowered one food point and should not give extra food when worked. Too easy too grow in this game imo, then slave, then regrow as fast as you slaved. Floodplains thought with its health problems are wayy to nice, make some sporatic stariving. Grasslands takes too much of a backseat too floodplains, they too good.

Isn't everything you said just opinions? It's not like you're the voice of absolute truth.

What's the logic behind food resources not giving more food when worked? Of course it's more effective to put pigs in a pen and breed them than to catch them in the wild. Floodplains do give unhealthiness, which will eventually reduce the amount of food you get. In my opinion, this system is much better than Civ3's sudden death of citizens.

-Why can't you enter your enemies land without declaring war. Common bring the fun back to civ where you could mess around with your neigbours or have a very good relation. Don't restrict unrealistic things hehe.

That's why there's the Open Borders agreement. If the opponent hasn't given you permission, of course crossing their borders is looked upon as an act of war.

-Also unit graphics imo look better in civ3, my opinion.

That's a new one to me. Civ3 graphics better than Civ4? No way.
 
@ OLLEUS,

Sounds like a great mod idea, especially the Reserves and Civil War.
 
Reserves (not started)
Units in cities can be put in reserve mode. While in reserve a unit costs 0 maintenance but can not fight. It takes 2 whole turns to wake up a unit so that it can fight again. The number of units that can stand down per city depends on civics, technologies and buildings in that city. This should hopefully allow peacefull players to have a large army, but not pay for it while they are not attacking anyone, while aggressive civs will have to pay the full burden.
I was thinking that rather then it taking 2 turns to wake a unit up the unit would wake up with maybe half strength. It is just an idea.
 
Generally, bravo! You have some pretty great ideas going here.
Here is a little more detail about all the ideas above.

Military Units - Balancing (done - just needs balancing)
As I see it there are 2 main problems with troops at the moment. The infamous spearman beats tank, and the I-will-rush-you-with-my-UU-and-beat-the-crap-out-of-you. Both of these problems have solutions. First of all, the strength of all units will change, later units recieving large increases. For example, a warrior will still have strength 2, a longbowman strength 9, a cavalry strength 24 and a marine strength 45. Of course, the problem with this is that you get jump points, where researching a new technology will double the firepower of your units. To prevent this there will be techs that will provide mini upgrades to your troops. As soon as that tech is researched all of your units of a certain type gain a free promotion which increases their strength. For example, an archer has strength 3, you then research mathematics which gives +1 strength archers, and now all of your archers and any future archers you build will all have strength 4. Also, with morale there is now another element which can be used to balance units. Preatorian could be changed to have strength 6, +25% city attack, +25% plains/grassland, morale 95, compared to swordsman with strength 6, +10% city attack, morale 85.
The "spearman-beats-tank" problem is more or less fixed in the current Civ 4 rule set. It really takes a LOT of spearmen to get a tank into a damaged enough state that it could lose, and even in the rare event that this happens, it will almost never turn the tide of a war.

I think you'd be better off introducing new units than "mini-upgrades." The problem with mini-upgrades is that they're both universal and free. This means that you can instantly upgrade your entire army for the cost of zero gold! That's overpowered. However, if you simply introduce more "in-between" units, then you can have a smoother upgrade path without changing the basic mechanics of unit upgrades.

Another possibility is to have promotions that get unlocked with certain techs.

I also think that when a unit upgrades, it should have all of its promotions refunded. This would have two effects: #1, it allows you to get rid of unwanted promotions from bygone eras (such as cover or shock); #2, it prevents units from obtaining otherwise "illegal" promotions (like City Raider Infantry).
Military Units - Morale (done - just needs balancing)
Morale is an entirely new consept to Civ. Every unit now has a morale, which is how likely it is to stay in combat and not run from the foe. Every time a unit runs from a round of combat, there is a probability that it will run from the battlefield. Roughly speaking, the probability is (100 - Morale) * OurHitPoints / TheirHitPoints. If a unit runs it looses 1 exp, and half of the health it had just before running. It will also move 1 square directly away from its opponent.
However, there is also a second darker side to morale. If a unit runs from combat, every unit in the stack it was in also has a chance of fleeing, and if one of those units flee, then every unit in that stack has a second chance of fleeing and so on, meaning it can soon snowball. When a unit flees not directly from combat it moves 1 square in a random direction and end its turn. Having a big stack can spell disaster, as your troops will scatter and can be picked off by enemy cavalry.
Interesting concept. The first (and biggest) consideration is whether or not you want to introduce a mechanic that takes unit control away from the player. Many players will find this feature VERY frustrating.

Also, because of the snowball effect, one failed morale check can spell disaster for an entire stack. This will lead to some wildly unpredictable (and lopsided) battles, and introduce a large element of luck into all battles between large forces. It's possible (and fairly likely) for a 5-unit stack to completely rout a 15-unit stack with a little bit of luck. If you think that the "spearman beating a tank" issue is frustrating, you ain't seen nothin' yet...

I think that Morale can have a place in civ. The simplest solution is to give a die-roll modifier based on morale. In this scenario, both Morale and Hit Points are important in determining the outcome of a battle. Another thing is that Morale can be integrated with the "supply" system. Units gradually lose morale if they spend long periods of time in enemy territory without winning battles, and when "resupplied," the unit regains lost morale.

I really don't think that the Stack of Doom needs to be eliminated. Large stacks should have a place in Civ. However, I do believe that a large stack should not be the single "best" way to win a battle, and that there should be some advantages that you can gain by spreading out over large areas. Collateral damage is a partial solution to this problem, but it doesn't solve it completely. Increasing the yield of pillaging would also help.
Resources (not started)
This is quite a simple idea really, which should encourage players to controll ALL the resources, and not just the one's which they need for their army. For every different food resource a city has, it gains +1 food, but it can not gain more food this way than it has population. So, a city of 5 pop with access to rice, wheat, fish, crab, clam and bananas will gain +5 food every turn. The same will be true for strategic resources and production. Luxury resources will give +5% commerce each. To balance this out, cities will need more food to grow to the next pop level, and later units and buildings will cost more.
An interesting concept, but I don't see it as an improvement over the current system. Yes, resources would be much more valuable, even in the early game. It also means that civs that are lacking in resources will be completely left out in the cold with no chance to catch up.

It's far better to have resources affect the limit of growth rather than the rate of growth. Otherwise, the snowball effect of a civilization's growth rate will place too much emphasis on the early-early game expansion micromanagement, with no way to recover once you fall behind.

I do agree that resources should have more uses, however. Probably the Corporations feature from Beyond the Sword will address this. Also, don't forget that resources already provide tile bonuses to any city that works them, so resources are already valuable from a purely "production" point of view.
Economy (not started)
I am not entirely sure how this could be done. A few ideas I have are to pool all of the GPP per civ, so every city will help you towards the next great person. Another one is to create a new world wonder called "East Indian Company", available with economics, with gives +1 commerce to each specialist. Any other ideas are welcomed, specialy if you can think of a 3rd way to manage an economy.
I agree that "cottage spam" is a bit overpowered. I think that having each cottage add .25 - .5 :yuck: is a good solution, and better than having cottages directly consume food. With the :yuck: mechanic, cities will have a "grace period" when they can build a few cottages before hitting the :health: cap. It will also make :health: more important in more games, and tone down the Financial trait somewhat.

Having a centralized Great Person pool would be a good idea overall. I think. One thing you lose is the ability to guarantee which GP you get, and where each GP will be born, but that's a small sacrifice for the benefit of knowing that you aren't completely wasting GPPs by running one or two specialists in some cities.

Civil War (not started)
As well as generating normal culture, all cities will also generate rebel culture. The amount of rebel culture produced is a percentage of normal culture, and the exact percentage varies with population, unhappiness, unhealthiness, distance to capitol, number of cities, number of religions and civics. This rebel culture is kept hidden from the player, and does not show up on the screen until a revolution happens. A revolution can have many triggers, starting a war, changing civics, changing state religions and loosing your capitol in war. If at that time any cities have more rebel culture than normal culture, then the city will flip to rebel and so will some of its garrisson. If any cities flip then the rebel culture will become visible and cause unrest in the cities. When a city flips, it goes to a new civ called "rebel+nameofoldciv", and the rebel civ is imeadiatly at war with the parent civ. The interesting part of this idea is that it models both short term and long term causes, and large empires are more fragile and reluctant to change for fear of breaking up.
A very interesting possibility. If you decide to implement this, please DON'T keep the rebel culture hidden from the player! That would only add unnecessary frustration. Also, cities should have a % chance for culture flip each turn instead of a threshold after which a flip become automatic. This would bring the rebellion mechanic more in line with the already existing culture-flipping mechanics. You can also have rebels add :mad: to a city ("We yearn for independence!"), the same way that foreign nationals yearn for their motherland.

The big question then becomes: what are the contributing factors to "rebel culture"? For example, if you make unhappiness add to rebel culture, then you end up with a snowball effect where your unhappy citizens create more unhappy citizens, and you lose your cities without really being able to do anything about it. This would also add more value to the Slavery civic (which is already overpowered), since the ability to whip away unhappy citizens would be mandatory if you want to keep your empire from falling apart!

Another good addition would be the "Barbarian Civ" mod that Jdog5000 created. This mod allows barbarians to settle down and become full-fledged civilizations!
Reserves (not started)
Units in cities can be put in reserve mode. While in reserve a unit costs 0 maintenance but can not fight. It takes 2 whole turns to wake up a unit so that it can fight again. The number of units that can stand down per city depends on civics, technologies and buildings in that city. This should hopefully allow peacefull players to have a large army, but not pay for it while they are not attacking anyone, while aggressive civs will have to pay the full burden.
Interesting. This should not eliminate maintenance costs, but only reduce them. I think 1 turn is plenty long enough to "wake up," since you've already given up your fortification bonuses. Question: would reserve troops still count towards + :) under Hereditary Rule? I suppose they should.
Supplies (not started)
There have been many models for supply's but most of them were far to complicated to be included in a civ game. This on is a lot simpler. All units have a certain amount of supplies with them. Every turn they use up 1 point of supply, and every time they use up 1 movement point or attack or are attacked they also use 1 supply point. Once a unit has no supply points in can not move or attack, but can only defend until it gets more supply points. There are 2 ways or replenishing your supplies. 1) spend a turn in a friendly city or 2) build a supply unit and use it to refill your supply points. Supply units use both hammers and food while they are being build and also require different resources depending on the age you are in. Supply units disappear once you use them.
This should make attacking other lands a lot harder and require the full effort of your entire civ. No more sending troops and then forgeting about them.
Unit supply is a very tricky concept for a game like Civ. Civ in general is not a tactical wargame, and really shouldn't be made into one. The scale of each game turn (which lasts up to 20 years at normal speed) suggests that combat is more of an abstraction than a simulation. The primary factor that determines victory should be: do I have a stronger war economy? If the answer is "yes," then I should be able to win most of the time by virtue of bigger numbers and better technology, rather than better micromanagement and rules exploitation in the field.

That being said, it could be interesting to add some logistical challenges to warfare, as long as it doesn't add too much unnecessary complexity.

If you're adding Morale as a unit stat, then attaching Morale to the supply mechanic would be a convenient solution. Units can lose morale (and their ability to win battles) the longer they remain "out of supply." This can also apply to cities under siege, where, if a city is cut off from the capital, it is considered "out of supply," and suffers the same morale loss as out-of-supply attackers.

Pillaging should also resupply units.

As far as the "supply unit" goes, I nominate Workers. Maybe one of their improvements can be a "supply camp," which acts as a supply source for soldiers away from home.

One more thing I would love to see is a mod that balances the civics a bit more. I'd like to see Serfdom as a viable alternative to Slavery, and to see Free Market and Environmentalism as viable alternatives to State Property. Bureaucracy is also somewhat overpowered compared to Vassalage.
 
juste moving the thread upwards...
any news of the thread owner ?

and 2 ideas :

supply units ... deletes into a supply improvement. then cost of supplying is either :
calculating a supply path going through supply depots in the vincinity (with a no FoW and no ennemy units path)
then: X*(longest distance of the supply path + 1/Y*other distances) ; Y = nb supply depot+1.

this way :
_a supply depot helps reducing the supply cost but not too much
_more supply depot on the chain improves the chain.

some number twinking to do on shorter supply route calculation... because either :
_shorter route that does not pass through depot but less benficial...
or on the opposite :
_very long supply depot route, cheaper than a close town...
both illogical behaviour.

sorry, its a bit mixed up but the idea is here.

second idea : economics
to improve alternatives to cottage spam:
some buildings needs specialist to work efficiantly :
-what is an univeristy without scientists ? a dumb hollow building...etc.
an exemple :
_grocer and market gives +15%wealth but a total of (normal)+25% each if there is at least 1 merchant.
_bank needs two to go from 30% to 50% (1 allowing for efficient market+grocer and 1 for efficient bank)
_library is the same as usual
_monestry needs at least 1 priest to go from normal +10% to a new +20%
_university needs at least 1 scientist to be at top efficiency; observatory needs 2.
_forge needs 1 eng to go from 20% to 30%
_factory starts at +10%, needs an unskilled worker to go to +20% and 2engineer to go to +30% (1for forge, 1 for factory)
...etc

that way, one needs to have some specialist in the city to make the best of some building.
but if no specialists : no issue just build more commerce.

number have to be balanced (and not make it too big for specialist civ). and I don't know if it is doable.

(oh! I love the +0.5unhealth for village, +1unhealth for town in city radius :)

Cala
PS : somebody talked about a building doing +50% to merchant gold...Etc
and it was said do be difficult to do as merchant gold is no different than commerce gold.
why not making the building do : merchant gives 3gold instead of 2 in this city.
 
another idea to go against 'bigger is better'
why put direct influence of science = beaker vs pop?

why not use this kind of equation :
the idea is to create a value that modifies the number of beakers produced empire-wide. (adding more if more scientific or substrating more if less scientific depending on the philisophy the modder want sto give)

ex : if literacy = 40% so beakers gained for technology : 40% of total produced beakers.. but it is too hard so maybe another idea :
beakers used for technology = 50%(fixed minimum) + literacy/2 = 70% of total beakers.
maybe the fixed minimum may depends on tech,or civics.
ex2: beakers used for technology = beakers produced * K*beakers/pop
that way, less pop or more beakers is important.
this one is more difficult to balance I think because K has to be wisely chosen.

thus, highly scientific/litterate empires (small ones or very rich big ones) have high througput of beakers while highly extensive empire with many poor cities are less efficient.
 
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