2.4 beta Feedback

[shiremct]

Running revision 2273, the most current (as of march 4th if I oopsed the revision number), hovering over the second building icon in the tech completed screen of toolworking causes a CTD. Sorry, not sure what the building was and the game takes 20 minutes to load with all art in unpacked form so I can't load it back up for now

National Units... are they being completely removed? I think that's a good idea, personally, and let them be integrated into the various flavor forms of current units instead. Easier to balance variations of common units instead of giving certain civs entirely different unit classes than their peers at various times.

Cavalry is still outrageously overpowered, but I'm pretty sure that's not going to change because I've mentioned this to you guys before, but that's nothing my own personal changes and tweaks can't take care of.

The new terrain graphics are really nice. Is the swampland a new terrain feature? I haven't played a lot of civ for a while so I don't remember. If it is new, what kind of uses will it have? Will certain resource bonuses only show up in marsh? Does it negatively affect health and disease like flood plains? I've seen a lot of mods adding marshland from Civ Col. but I hope it is added for a reason other than just to be added (which is not the case in most mods).

I'll try to test farther along and give you more feedback after work.
Is there somewhere else you would like me to post bugs, crashes, and/or feedback for 2.4? If so let me know.

 

[Walter Hawkwood]

Running revision 2273, the most current (as of march 4th if I oopsed the revision number), hovering over the second building icon in the tech completed screen of toolworking causes a CTD. Sorry, not sure what the building was and the game takes 20 minutes to load with all art in unpacked form so I can't load it back up for now

Yes, we're aware of this and trying to fix it.

National Units... are they being completely removed? I think that's a good idea, personally, and let them be integrated into the various flavor forms of current units instead. Easier to balance variations of common units instead of giving certain civs entirely different unit classes than their peers at various times.

Nope, they are all there. What makes you think so?

Cavalry is still outrageously overpowered, but I'm pretty sure that's not going to change because I've mentioned this to you guys before, but that's nothing my own personal changes and tweaks can't take care of.

The new terrain graphics are really nice. Is the swampland a new terrain feature? I haven't played a lot of civ for a while so I don't remember. If it is new, what kind of uses will it have? Will certain resource bonuses only show up in marsh? Does it negatively affect health and disease like flood plains? I've seen a lot of mods adding marshland from Civ Col. but I hope it is added for a reason other than just to be added (which is not the case in most mods).

Yep, it's new, and it is mostly negative. It negatively affects health and diesase, and gives units stationed there a NEGATIVE defense bonus (so luring your enemy into one is a good idea). Some resources can spawn there, but nothing exclusive. Unlike most mods (and Civ Col) it is a feature, not a terrain; with sufficient tech it can be drained (although that is even harder than cutting jungle).

I'll try to test farther along and give you more feedback after work.
Is there somewhere else you would like me to post bugs, crashes, and/or feedback for 2.4? If so let me know.

No, it's cool if you post here.

 

[shiremct]

Regarding the National units, I couldn't find one for Rome (And I still can't) and Carthage, but I've since looked again in the unit section of the civopedia instead of just the Faction section and found some.

I thought the national units used to show up on the faction cards that show the factions unique units. Maybe I'm wrong, but in any case, they don't show up there anymore and I think it would be good if they did. And again, I still don't see one for Rome.

It's good to hear there is a lot of depth to the swamp feature addition, and I'm sure you guys are probably already on this anyway, but some swamp promotions would be a nice complimenting touch.

Edit: found the Roman National Unit.

 

[Walter Hawkwood]

I tried indicating National Units on their icons, but the symbol is unfortunately barely noticeable. Since they aren't really "special" by the game terms, it would be quite hard displaying them as a separate category. Swamp promotions sound interesting, but:

1) Swamp is a rare feature; it's not like forest, it's like oasis. And they're set to never be continuous (taking more than one square). This renders tactical usefulness of such promotions somewhat dubious.

2) Likewise, I don't think any military unit in history has really specialized for fighting in the marshland (and it's even hard to imagine how one could do it).

 

[Humakty]

You guys have a rare sense of absolute cruelty :

"Wow, version 2.4, at last, my savior, my prophet !"

But nope, I'll have to wait... Soooo long..... I can't...Snirfl.

Apart from that, national units are the only ones that don't show up in the civ presentation. At least the last time I checked.

Any hope of a vague ETA on the next version ?

 

[Walter Hawkwood]

No, not really. In any case, not tomorrow, not even in a week. Maybe in about a month, if all goes well. But don't take my word for it.

And yes, I verified NU problem, and I don't think there's an easy solution to that. The game regards them as totally normal, default units of the class. I'll see if switching default units of the class to none fixes it.

 

[Humakty]

Thanks for the info, if it is not there in a month and a day, I'll ritually commit sucide by swallowing my PC.

I've modded a little, and had the same problem. A solution could be to fix a template unit as default, that no one can built. Putting none doesn't do the trick, as far as I remember.

 

[Walter Hawkwood]

Yeah, might work. I'll try this.

 

[Freakwave]

Two bugs i have encountered so far are in my game downloaded from SVN about two weeks ago;

FT-17 doesn't display its UI, when a FT-17 gets selected it shows the previously active unit UI.
You can move it around and can build it obviously. Normal orders work, like sentry and fortify but cant upgrade it since there is no shortcut key for upgrading?

Privateers can attack land units in a city, this goes for non-owned privateers. Also moving your own privateer from outside your cultural borders into a city that you own, attacks your own land units based in the city. Moving a privateer into a city from inside your cultural borders doesn't give that problem.

 

[Walter Hawkwood]

Two bugs i have encountered so far are in my game downloaded from SVN about two weeks ago;

FT-17 doesn't display its UI, when a FT-17 gets selected it shows the previously active unit UI.
You can move it around and can build it obviously. Normal orders work, like sentry and fortify but cant upgrade it since there is no shortcut key for upgrading?

I believe that issue was fixed yesterday.

Privateers can attack land units in a city, this goes for non-owned privateers. Also moving your own privateer from outside your cultural borders into a city that you own, attacks your own land units based in the city. Moving a privateer into a city from inside your cultural borders doesn't give that problem.

It is a bug, but it's kinda cool, don't you think? We can't fix it anyway with what we now have.

 

[Freakwave]

The funny thing is the privateers have the same kind of problem in BtS. If you move them out of your city or from inside your cultural borders to a neighbour civ it asks if you want to declare war. Its not uncommon that privateers become pirates themselves.

Now we are at it. Privateers in warlordsTR can't do much but sink ships, they cant pillage. Maybe get gold from a succesfull sinking? as to simulate plunder. So they payfor themselves

On civics, Olicharcy seems pretty popular still as now is also state atheism. the unhappy from religion doesnt seem to be a problem. Monarchy gets chosen now too.

Cannons are too powerfull. I dont know if the new system of what now is used in BtS can be implemented where siege units cant win combat but can withdraw.

 

[Walter Hawkwood]

Could you elaborate on civics some more? Especially on religious and labor ones. Which are adopted often? Which almost never?

 

[Freakwave]

Government:

Monarchy is sometimes chosen. Almost always Oligarchy. I get the feeling what gets discovered earlier, politics or dynasticism. When they choose Oligarchy it remains the most popular until dictatorship. Monarchy and Politics are also discovered at the same time, tech tree wise. If you compare both civics it isnt strange oligarchy is more popular.

Atm i have Federalism along with Ceasar who is not my vassal. We are the only ones.


Legal:

Its aristocracy at first and then bureaucracy all the way, i am the only one with social justice just so i could build Univ suff.

Now i started a war the war exh. is very high from first turn even with Universal Suffrage/Arc de Triomphe and Mt.Rushmore i also have hollywood. But i built Social Guarantees aswell. My last war is more than 20 turns ago, so i dont think i had some left.

Labor:

This section goes more 'Organic' Slavery then Serfdom. The odd favorite civic Caste system For the ones with preference like Sejong Tawang. Hired labor, i switched as soon as had it so i got rid of those revolts. Other civs tend to stick to Serfdom untill Hired Labor and then they switch as soon as they got it researched.

Economy:

Most popular is Free market. Some use merchant princes, 2 atm, but they arent big civs. I havent seen mercantilism used.i tried it just to see the new features. It doesnt compare to Free market. Even with import tariffs. I did a bit of reading on mercantilism and basically it was harnessing resources, both manpower and natural resources for maximum exploitation. Its almost hidden serfdom/slavery in using human resources.
So a production bonus in some area's wouldnt be strange.

As it is now its just no foreign trade, but that wasnt entirely true. It was no imports/minimizing imports from abroad. maybe less foreign trade routes but more profitable. Ideally it should be far more profitable to be mercantilist in the beginning untill more trade routes from techs make free trade much better.

Religion:

Also pretty smooth. Warlike civs go for theocracy. Organized religion is chosen at first so civs can convert. Pacifism sometimes. Free religion however has never been chosen, all go for Atheism instead.
Personally i feel some civics should only be possible with other civics and not "free for all" For instance democracies wont accept state atheism, state property or slavery etc.

 

[Walter Hawkwood]

Thanks, that was very helpful.

I have some ideas on how to punish the incompatible civic choices, but they have to be handled via events, and as such are for BtS. Although some stuff I would disagree with. "State property", for instance, usually tends to be interpreted as "Planned Economy", but can actually also mean "State Capitalism", which is quite compatible with democratic capitalist governments (although quite heavy-handed ones); we even considered splitting the civic in two to get rid of that misunderstanding, but opted for an earlier civic (Merchant Princes) instead for the sake of diversity. Likewise, USA is a great example of a democratic nation running slavery till the Civil War. So, although many civic combos seem incompatible, human history is so screwed up that one can find the real history examples of running almost all combos there are.

 

[Freakwave]

You are right, i am thinking too much in present day terms!

What do you think about adding a production bonus to mercantilism? So it becomes a viable option for civilizations. Also this can give a boost to new colonies if hammers were added to cities instead of percentages. Untill Ministeries come into play to give new cities buildings for free. By that time, ideally, free trade should be much better due to more traderoutes.

The AI is pretty weak in defending, my big 15unit stacks don't get attacked. Smaller stacks do get attacked, that is less than 5 units. Also when it attacks it does send big stacks but when those stacks are defeated it just sends single units in. Which are of course easily taken care of. This was in a war where i was much weaker and was behind in tech. All i did was wait and build up my forces. Then send a few stacks in to capture cities.

The AI doesnt spend its cannons on enemy stacks what is a better strategy than to defend cities with them. Also the stacklimit hinders AI city defence that is until 15 units are left.

 

[Walter Hawkwood]

Hm... All AI concerns are off-limits for us.

We'll try adding more production to mercantilism (and will probably unload the same bonus from bureaucracy, as it seems overpowered).