(2-NS) integrate Enhanced Naval Warfare into VP

[azum4roll]

I'm throwing a huge bomb here. This will surely attract multiple counterproposals, but I think we should try the mod in its fullest before changing stuff.

The proposal is simple: integrate the full Enhanced Naval Warfare (v2.1) mod into VP.

Rationale:
Lategame ships are really lacking. There's no naval unit unlock in the whole Modern era. You have to use Cruisers for 4 whole tech tiers until Battleships unlock and it just stops there. Submarines don't exist until late Atomic. The ENW mod fills all those gaps and enhances the overall lategame naval warfare experience.

The mod also adds an earlier missile (Rocket Missile) that's much cheaper and is actually usable, as well as a Supercarrier that can carry 5 aircraft at base but requires Uranium. For details please refer to the OP of the linked thread.

Oh, and no more random Withdraw from Melee promotion on just one melee ship but not its upgrade. Free promotions always exist on upgraded versions if the promotions stay on upgrade.

 

[Stalker0]

Two issues:

1) When I click the link it takes me to page 16 of the thread. Not the biggest deal but might cause some confusion.

2) I know its a pain, but I don't consider this to follow the "exact proposal" criteria for a proposal. It just lays out a bunch of stuff, but it doesn't actually describe what the changes are at all. Aka units get new CS values, new costs, etc etc. It just forces the voter to compare those themselves if they are not familiar with the modmod, and I think that is an unfair burden.

 

[nekokon]

Posted in the counter proposal thread so might as well put it here.
I prefer this to stay as modmod since I won't ever be using it.
Reason being even though the modmod added a lot of tiers, they practically play the same way (with more bonus for later upgrade) which to me feel like power creep and not enhancement. Naval warfare is already stale because of the lack of terrain so the main tactical thing going for them is role specialization, and having a bunch of free upgrades just make them less specialized and more all rounded all powerful, with a creeping mandatory upgrade every few techs.
If the modmod became interesting and balanced by itself then there might be consideration. Simply adding more "tiers" is nowhere near enough, and would even dilute the effect of individual tech.

 

[azum4roll]

Don't you feel an emptyness in the modern era when your ships stay low in power, unable to hit land units well?

And ranged ships end at Battleship while melee gets another tier that can compete with land units in strength.

If the modmod became interesting and balanced by itself then there might be consideration.

It's not less balanced than the current VP, that much I can say. People have many ideas about how to make the mod better, but as long as it's not part of VP we can't make a large enough poll about them. Which is why I go for the "Add first, change later" approach.

 

[nekokon]

While there is indeed a time when cruiser falls off, one tier to bridge between cruiser and battleship would be enough given their respective increase in strength. There's no need to add a few other better tiers while having the same pacing in power, it just makes their progression boring and "mandatory", and at the same time make last tier too strong/multipurpose it reduces the specialization from earlier era (where we have a semi balanced destroyer > sub > cruiser rock paper scissor situation).
In comparison, going from lancer to landship or tank to modern armor takes longer but the spike in CS is better, or going from field gun to artillery takes 2 era but it comes with +1 range which is also very significant. Those strong power spike makes the timing of getting each tech more significant and can be make use of better than going with a very steady pace: 1 era, 10 CS increase, repeat until end game.

 

[N.Core]

Naval warfare is already stale because of the lack of terrain so the main tactical thing going for them is role specialization

It's only a map thing. If you play with too much Terra-like or Continents-like map, yeah naval warfare is just a redundancy.
But, if you play with more intricate maps that generate lots of islands and archipelago, naval warfare is basically what you're doing most of the time.

I know I'm a little bit biased here as a Tectonic map dev, but still I dislike the fact that late-game naval warfare is so stale when compared to early-game.

 

[Rekk]

I don't support just dumping ENW into the base VP folders; if we're going to integrate it, add everything properly. If we're going to spend the effort to add everything properly, I'd rather not spend the time and effort adding everything, only to take out a bunch of stuff later.

 

[Recursive]

@azum4roll Proposals are required to include their rationale. It would also be helpful to provide some detail on what the mod changes.

 

[azum4roll]

Updated OP with some rationale and details.

 

[Tekamthi]

is ENW 100% configured and ready to integrate as-is, as per OP proposal? Or are we expecting someone to round out some rough edges? I often (almost always) play with it on, but I don't always make it far enough into my game to notice it all that much (this is a good thing, blends in, superficially at least, just fine), and when I do, don't always have a significant navy. I can't vouch for whether all text is in place etc, or whether there are some balance oddities left over from older compatibility work, etc.

If its all in shape, or even if not, I admit I do use it almost every game, but I am still on the fence for proposal, I think @nekokon makes a good point about incremental creep and the feeling of frequent, mandatory upgrades, and why not just leave it as a modmod? what is added to integrating it to the main vp?

Personally I like the way the corresponding air warfare mod works, with aircraft generations sort of leap frogging each other, iirc. Maybe ENW could use a similar structure to eliminate the incremental power creep issue.

 

[Rekk]

We are expecting that more changes will need to be made after it gets added.

 

[azum4roll]

With tech cost being much higher lategame you should be able to actually send your navy on a mission and have plenty of time to complete it before needing to recall and upgrade the ships.

 

[N.Core]

bal's version got sponsored, and this one is not. No, I don't sponsor this.
While I much more agree with bal's adjusted version, I think people should have the option to vote for this,

 

[Recursive]

Proposal failed due to lack of sponsorship.