[DLL] (8-NS) 4UC Byzantium / Persia / America UU reshuffle

[Hinin]

This proposal only involves military components of the civilizations below. It will thus be compatible with any proposal that modifies other components.

(8-01) 4UC America

This is a thread for discussing the addition of 2 more unique components to the American civilization.

forums.civfanatics.com

[Sponsored] - (8-31) 4UC Persia

This is a thread for discussing the addition of 2 more unique components to the Persian civilization.

forums.civfanatics.com

(8-08) 4UC Byzantium

This is a thread for discussing the addition of 2 more unique components to the Byzantine civilization.

forums.civfanatics.com

Current :

Byzantium :
UMU1 - Cataphract (replaces Knight)
Unlocked at Chivalry
175 Production cost / 300 Faith cost
Requires Horse

3 MP / 2 Vision (-1 / 0)
28 CS (+3)

Cover I
+30% CS in Open Terrain
Can move after attacking

Minor City Attack Penalty (-25% instead of -33%)
No Terrain Defense

Persia :
UMU1 - Immortal (replaces Spearman)
Unlocked at Bronze Working
70 Production cost / 150 Faith cost

2 MP / 2 Vision
13 CS (+1)

Armor Plating I - +25% CS when defending
Faster Healing - +10 HP when healing
Formation I

UMU2 - Qizilbash (replaces Lancer):
available at Metallurgy

350 Production cost / 450 Faith Cost (0 / -50)
Can be Purchased with Faith without the Zealotry Tenet
Requires Horses

4 Movement / 2 Vision
41 CS

Safavi Agitator - Gains +10 Faith, +20 Gold and +30 GAP when pillaging a tile, scaling with Era
Can move after attacking

City attack penalty
No Terrain Defense

America :
UMU 1 - Minuteman (replaces Musketman)
Unlocked at Metallurgy
325 Production cost / 500 Faith cost

2 MP / 2 Vision (+1 Vision from UA)
22 CS / 31 RCS / 2 Range (+1 / +1 / 0)

Barrage I - +10% RCS when attacking ; +10% RCS when attacking Units above 50% HP
Golden Age points from Kills
Ignores Terrain cost

Cannot Melee Attack
Attack malus against Naval Units

Proposal :

Byzantium - Replace the Cataphract by the Varangian Guard.
Persia - Change both Persian UMU : the Immortal is replaced by the Tagma, which is an earlier and tweaked version of the current Cataphract, while the Qizilbash is replaced by the Zamburakchi, which is a tweaked version of the current Minuteman.
America - Rework the Minuteman to become a unique skirmisher / infantry mix.

Byzantium :

UMU 1 - Varangian Guard (unique UnitClass)

Unlocked at Chivalry ; obsoletes at Rifling ; upgrades into Tercio
Same promotion tree as Melee Units

Cannot be Produced ; must be purchased with Gold.
Does not suffer from Experience or Movement maluses when purchased with Gold
175 Production Cost => same Gold cost a Knights
Has increased maintenance cost

2 MP / 2 Vision
24 CS

Imperial Guard - +40% CS, reduced by 4% per tile away from the Capital ; +15 max HP
Discipline

Other components would be the ones from hokath's proposal for Byzantium / Arabia

Persia :

UMU 1 - Tagma (replaces Horseman) => new arts from Ethnic Diversity can be used
Unlocked at Military Theory
110 Production cost / 150 Faith cost (+20 / 0)
Requires Horse

3 MP / 2 Vision (-1 / 0)
15 CS (+2)

Armor Plating I
Can Move after Attacking

Minor Attack malus against Cities (-15% CS) - Lost upon upgrade
No Terrain Defense
Attack Malus against Cities (-33% CS)

UMU 2 - Zamburakchi (replaces the Musketman) => art from this mod

Unlocked at Metallurgy
325 Production cost / 500 Faith cost

2 MP / 2 Vision
22 CS / 31 RCS / 2 Range (+1 / 1 / 0)

Ignores Terrain cost
Golden Age points from Kills

Cannot Melee attack
Attack malus against Ship Units

Other components would be the one proposed by pineappledan.

America :

UMU 1 - Minuteman (replaces Commando)
Unlocked at Metallurgy (instead of Railroad)
500 Production cost / 500 Faith cost (-125 / -100)
Suffers no experience or movement penalty when purchased with Gold
Requires no Building in the City to be purchased

3 MP / 3 Vision
32 CS / 2 ASD

+25% CS when attacking
Brute Force
Commando
Recon
Scavenger
Mobilization - When spawned, upgraded or at the start of a war, fully heal and gain 20% CS for 15 turns (number of turns scaling with GameSpeed)
Smuggling Network - Gain bonus Gold from pillaging improvements and plundering Trade Routes ; lost upon upgrade

Other components would the ones proposed by pineappledan.

Rationale :

The main reason of all these change is to concentrate into Persia some the units and gameplay elements that corresponds better to its history and themes as a military power.

Cataphract / Tagma instead of the Immortal : Persia was the birthplace of armored cavalry which was later copied by other regional powers. Its infantry, in contrast, was mostly light and meant to occupy terrain and provide arrow fire. Thus, not only are the Immortal suspect in term of historicity (we don't even know if they truly were the "elite guard" Herodotus talked about), but their force the Persian military in VP into a direction that is static and grindy instead of the mobile forms of warfare known in the region. Thus, it seemed logical to propose this replacement of the Immortals by the Tagma, an early and expensive (for its era) version of the Cataphract whose lack of mobility and smaller malus against cities is meant to be counterbalanced by the Persian UA. Plus, this allows the civilization to truly be an expansionist menace in the early game to better use the economical parts of its kit later on.

Zamburakchi (current Minuteman) instead of the Qizilbash : Since Persia now has its early unique heavy mounted unit, the Qizilbash isn't needed anymore. The replacement unit however doesn't want to be about early Persia too to avoid an excessive early game power spike, and so we should stay within the chronological borders of the later Persian states. This, plus the fact that the current version of the Minuteman, in term of gameplay, offers exactly what we want for Persia (mobility increased by the UA and golden age points from kills), explains my choice. If the art make people uncomfortable (ranged camel that isn't mounted) then there art ways to change to unit to be only made of foot soldiers.

Varangian Guard instead of Cataphract : This change is to take within the context of my proposal 8-02a / 8-08a where Byzantium is meant to receive the current Arabia's UA, and so would be centered around its capital city. The Varangian Guard is meant to act as the final rampart within the defensive kit that I proposed, acting as a mix between a mercenary unit and a royal guard. Its bonuses make it a straightfoward but powerful unit that can be fielded very quickly whatever the gameplan of the player. It isn't restricted in term of number, but its increase maintenance cost can be a burder if fielded in large numbers.

Minuteman rework : Meant to act as a firefighter sort of unit, taking the speed and versatility of the Commando and combining it with economic warfare for an explosive cocktail that takes advantage of the civ's obsession with gaining gold to fuel its UA.

As always, thanks for reading.

Edit 1 : Reworked the Minuteman, now an early and Gold focused Commando that thrives on economic warfare.

 

[pineappledan]

you have 2 outstanding proposals for Byzantium. Is this allowed?

Personally, I would rather see the Jarl on Sweden than this Varangian on Byzantium. The Varangian guard were foreign mercenaries and it doesn't feel like this properly represents Byzantium so much as it spotlights more Scandinavian culture.

I don't see why Byzantium can't keep the Cataphract/Tagma while Persia can get a unique Aswaran Horseman. I don't see the two as being conflicting, and we have unique art for both.

 

[Hinin]

you have 2 outstanding proposals for Byzantium. Is this allowed?

Basically, it's either this, or I put everything within the same proposal, and it becomes a quite complexe Byzantium / Arabia / Persia / America thread. Since what I propose here can clearly be separated in term of goals, and that the heart of this proposal is Persia, I think it's legitimate for clarity to separate both.

If the Magi don't consider this way of doing things as legitimate, I can simply transfer the whole thing within the Byzantium / Arabia thread.

 

[Hinin]

Personally, I would rather see the Jarl on Sweden than this Varangian on Byzantium.

To me, both can coexist, especially since the Varangian Guard was made up of many peoples, including from Germanic kingdoms. "Varangian" is more an umbrella name referencing the first members of the guard and the impact they had on its traditions.

I don't see why Byzantium can't keep the Cataphract/Tagma while Persia can get a unique Aswaran Horseman. I don't see the two as being conflicting, and we have unique art for both.

Because I prefer not multiplying the number of Classical / Medieval heavy mounted units when there are other alternatives for Byzantium.

 

[pineappledan]

Basically, it's either this, or I put everything within the same proposal, and it becomes a quite complexe Byzantium / Arabia / Persia / America thread. Since what I propose here can clearly be separated in term of goals, and that the heart of this proposal is Persia, I think it's legitimate for clarity to separate both.

Just put the Varangian guard into your Byzantium/Arabia swap and propose a Persian mounted unit with slightly altered artwork.

 

[Hinin]

Just put the Varangian guard into your Byzantium/Arabia swap and propose a Persian mounted unit with slightly altered artwork.

I fear that people are so attached to the Byzantine Cataphract that they end up rejecting the whole thing just because I put it there. Since the Arabia / Byzantium swap is more important to me, I prefer keeping things this way.

 

[hokath]

I suspect this isn't allowed since 1) each counterproposal has to offer a complete version of the civ and 2) you can't counterpropose the same thing twice.
I will consult with the authorities.

On the proposal. Minuteman not replacing anything seems a bit janky to me. Perhaps Cuirassier replacement (this is what I was thinking for Musketeer also)

 

[pineappledan]

If this is allowed then I should be allowed to counterpropose.

 

[Rekk]

On the proposal. Minuteman not replacing anything seems a bit janky to me. Perhaps Cuirassier replacement (this is what I was thinking for Musketeer also)

Or commando like pineappledan proposed.

 

[KlHannibal2]

This proposal involves Byzantium, which is also the subject of one other proposal of mine (proposal 8-02a / 8-08a). If both proposal passes, I intend this one to overlap 8-02a / 8-08a for units involved (namely only the Cataphract within the Byzantine kit).

Current :

Byzantium :
UMU1 - Cataphract (replaces Knight)
Unlocked at Chivalry
175 Production cost / 300 Faith cost
Requires Horse

3 MP / 2 Vision (-1 / 0)
28 CS (+3)

Cover I
+30% CS in Open Terrain
Can move after attacking

Minor City Attack Penalty (-25% instead of -33%)
No Terrain Defense

Persia :
UMU1 - Immortal (replaces Spearman)
Unlocked at Bronze Working
70 Production cost / 150 Faith cost

2 MP / 2 Vision
13 CS (+1)

Armor Plating I - +25% CS when defending
Faster Healing - +10 HP when healing
Formation I

UMU2 - Qizilbash (replaces Lancer):
available at Metallurgy

350 Production cost / 450 Faith Cost (0 / -50)
Can be Purchased with Faith without the Zealotry Tenet
Requires Horses

4 Movement / 2 Vision
41 CS

Safavi Agitator - Gains +10 Faith, +20 Gold and +30 GAP when pillaging a tile, scaling with Era
Can move after attacking

City attack penalty
No Terrain Defense

America :
UMU 1 - Minuteman (replaces Musketman)
Unlocked at Metallurgy
325 Production cost / 500 Faith cost

2 MP / 2 Vision (+1 Vision from UA)
22 CS / 31 RCS / 2 Range (+1 / +1 / 0)

Barrage I - +10% RCS when attacking ; +10% RCS when attacking Units above 50% HP
Golden Age points from Kills
Ignores Terrain cost

Cannot Melee Attack
Attack malus against Naval Units

Proposal :

Byzantium - Replace the Cataphract by the Varangian Guard.
Persia - Change both Persian UMU : the Immortal is replaced by the Tagma, which is an earlier and tweaked version of the current Cataphract, while the Qizilbash is replaced by the Zamburakchi, which is a tweaked version of the current Minuteman.
America - Rework the Minuteman to become a unique skirmisher / infantry mix.

Byzantium :

UMU 1 - Varangian Guard (unique UnitClass)
View attachment 695646
Unlocked at Chivalry ; obsoletes at Rifling ; upgrades into Tercio
Same promotion tree as Melee Units

Cannot be Produced ; must be purchased with Gold.
Does not suffer from Experience or Movement maluses when purchased with Gold
175 Production Cost => same Gold cost a Knights
Has increased maintenance cost

2 MP / 2 Vision
24 CS

Imperial Guard - +40% CS, reduced by 4% per tile away from the Capital ; +15 max HP
Discipline

Persia :

UMU 1 - Tagma (replaces Horseman) => same art as current Cataphract
Unlocked at Military Theory
110 Production cost / 150 Faith cost (+20 / 0)
Requires Horse

3 MP / 2 Vision (-1 / 0)
15 CS (+2)

Armor Plating I
Can Move after Attacking

Minor Attack malus against Cities (-15% CS) - Lost upon upgrade
No Terrain Defense
Attack Malus against Cities (-33% CS)

UMU 2 - Zamburakchi (replaces the Musketman) => art from this mod
View attachment 695650
Unlocked at Metallurgy
325 Production cost / 500 Faith cost

2 MP / 2 Vision
22 CS / 31 RCS / 2 Range (+1 / 1 / 0)

Ignores Terrain cost
Golden Age points from Kills

Cannot Melee attack
Attack malus against Ship Units

America :

UMU 1 - Minuteman (Unique Unitclass) => same art as current Minuteman
Unlocked at Metallurgy ; obsoletes at Ballistics ; upgrades into Gatling Gun
325 Production cost / 500 Faith cost
Doesn't suffer movement or experience penalties when purchased with Gold

2 MP / 2 Vision (+1 Vision from UA)
25 CS / 25 RCS / 1 Range

Mobilization - +20% CS and +5 HP when healing within ally Territory ; lost upon upgrade
Envelopment - Benefits from flanking bonuses for ranged attacks ; +10% CS from flanking

Cannot attack in Melee
Attack malus against Ship Units

Rationale :

The main reason of all these change is to concentrate into Persia some the units and gameplay elements that corresponds better to its history and themes as a military power.

Cataphract / Tagma instead of the Immortal : Persia was the birthplace of armored cavalry which was later copied by other regional powers. Its infantry, in contrast, was mostly light and meant to occupy terrain and provide arrow fire. Thus, not only are the Immortal suspect in term of historicity (we don't even know if they truly were the "elite guard" Herodotus talked about), but their force the Persian military in VP into a direction that is static and grindy instead of the mobile forms of warfare known in the region. Thus, it seemed logical to propose this replacement of the Immortals by the Tagma, an early and expensive (for its era) version of the Cataphract whose lack of mobility and smaller malus against cities is meant to be counterbalanced by the Persian UA. Plus, this allows the civilization to truly be an expansionist menace in the early game to better use the economical parts of its kit later on.

Zamburakchi (current Minuteman) instead of the Qizilbash : Since Persia now has its early unique heavy mounted unit, the Qizilbash isn't needed anymore. The replacement unit however doesn't want to be about early Persia too to avoid an excessive early game power spike, and so we should stay within the chronological borders of the later Persian states. This, plus the fact that the current version of the Minuteman, in term of gameplay, offers exactly what we want for Persia (mobility increased by the UA and golden age points from kills), explains my choice. If the art make people uncomfortable (ranged camel that isn't mounted) then there art ways to change to unit to be only made of foot soldiers.

Varangian Guard instead of Cataphract : This change is to take within the context of my proposal 8-02a / 8-08a where Byzantium is meant to receive the current Arabia's UA, and so would be centered around its capital city. The Varangian Guard is meant to act as the final rampart within the defensive kit that I proposed, acting as a mix between a mercenary unit and a royal guard. Its bonuses make it a straightfoward but powerful unit that can be fielded very quickly whatever the gameplan of the player. It isn't restricted in term of number, but its increase maintenance cost can be a burder if fielded in large numbers.

Minuteman rework : Meant to act as a mix between a skimisher unit and a melee unit, the new Minuteman I propose would not only easy to field quickly in large numbers (as its name suggests), but would also take the role of a frontline range unit that cannot move after attacking and lacks range, but fares very well within American territory (synergy with the civ's gameplay theme), has bulk and benefits from flanking. All in all, a versatile and resilient unit that can gring the enemy quite well and would be an interesting rival against ma_kuh's Prowler rework if it came to pass.

As always, thanks for reading.

Cool proposals and historically accurate.
From a gameplay point of view, I really like the current immortal. Armor plating plus extra healing is great and iconic. It could be given to another civ, does not have to be Persia.

Range 1 units that can't move after attacking seem very weak. Milae played the Inuit mod that has such a unit and it was very bad.

 

[pineappledan]

It’s not clear from this proposal what promotion tree minutemen would have. What combat class are they?

 

[Hinin]

Edit 1 : Reworked the Minuteman, now an early and Gold focused Commando that thrives on economic warfare.

 

[Hinin]

DLL requirements for the proposal (both are for the Minuteman) :
- Mobilization - When spawned, upgraded or at the start of a war, fully heal and gain 20% CS for 15 turns (number of turns scaling with GameSpeed)
=> Quite complexe, I would perfectly understand if it got toned down
- Smuggling Network - Gain bonus Gold from pillaging improvements and plundering Trade Routes ; lost upon upgrade
=> Need to create a UnitPromotions_YieldFromPlunder that will also be useful for the Corsair Razzia promotion

 

[hokath]

Yes the pillage yields already exist, it's just the trade route part and that's the same as Morocco, which is already sponsored

(8-28) 4UC Morocco

This is a thread for discussing the addition of 2 more unique components to the Moroccan civilization.

forums.civfanatics.com

 

[Hinin]

If we're talking about the 4UC elements proposed by pineappledan :
- America : Monitor CS bonus to adjacent owned Cities ; Homestead claiming Pasture resources within 3 tiles and granting some Production when doing so.
- Persia : Improvement_GoldenAgeYields for the UI
- Byzantium : pineappledan 4UC Arabia doesn't require more dll, and neither does the his version of 4UC Byzantium ; if we're talking about hokath's proposal, they made the list here

 

[hokath]

The Persia part is sponsored (and pull request already!) by Kungcheops so it's just the America stuff

Edit to not ruin Recursive's timestamps.
Mobilization - When spawned, upgraded or at the start of a war, fully heal and gain 20% CS for 15 turns (number of turns scaling with GameSpeed)
This was the only part not to get sponsored somewhere

 

[Recursive]

Timestamp post to arrange all the threads in a neat order.