2050 Bc - 1550 Bc

[Stilgar08]

Religion

As I've stated before, my personal playing style is to let go Religion first and come back to race for Christianity and/or Islam later, so I'm not very familiar with Religion-oriented strategies. Having said that, I don't see any reason to adopt a State Religion at this time.

We could go for CoL and grab Confucianism after researching Alphabet... Personally I like to go there since it just fits into my regular techs...

Diplomacy

I recommend a close and friendly relationship with Egypt for now, as it has been developing very well without causing us trouble. Messing with it at this time would be both causeless and dangerous. An Open Borders agreement with Egypt would benefit us insofar as our Scout 3 can then explore the NW region of the continent which is yet unknown to us.

Arabia, on the other hand, has been causing us some trouble, and is likely to cause more. Also it is not doing so well as us or Egypt. So this is our potential target of attack, though I wouldn't recommend declaring War within the next 10 Turns either.

Agreed. Anyone disagree?

 

[Blkbird]

No open borders till we stop our soon to be vanquished foes from sneaking into the southern peninsula. (Ie. City #1)

This doesn't make sense to me. As we can see on the Outlook map I created for the Southern Region, neither Egypt nor Arabia needs an Open Borders agreement with us to get to the Southern Peninsula and compete with us for the Copper City. Same for the Silver City in the North: Egypt can get there any time, Arabia would need to either go through us or Egypt, but we aren't trading with Arabia any way.

As for the Gems City and the Marble City, none of our rivals would be settling that deep into our territory anyway. And if they do, we would be able to capture the city easily as they cannot provide the logistic to defend it.

In other words, we can't cut off Egypt, but Egypt is cutting off us (or at least our Scout 3), so trading Open Borders would only benefit us without any significant lost.

 

[Blkbird]

I left out spot D because it's not top priority for me, but which of the above mentioned is top-priority in your opinion?? I would go for c (marble) and after that for a (copper). What do you (ALL) think?

Marble can wait. What for do you need it right now? Copper is much important, as an Warrior is nothing compared to an Axeman (requires Copper or Iron), plus the Colossus is a Wonder more realistic for us to build than any Marble-accelerated Wonder.

I name the proposed settling points A to D not only because they go from S to N counter-clockweise, but also because I'd settle in that order.

 

[Blkbird]

I would suggest going for alpha here and afterwards heavy tech-trading. if possible... What do you think... Generally I think tech trading is something which has to be considered by the assembly (citizen's, whatever) therefore IF we go there: Should I set up a poll with the different possibilities or just decide???

Before we rush to that, maybe you could tell us which techs exactly you're expected to trade in from our neighbors? Given the character of their leaders and their estimated progress, which Techs do you think they'll have that we'd able to trade in? Going blindly for Alphabet so as to trade Techs without any analysis of what to anticipate would be somehow irresponsible, in my opinion.

 

[Blkbird]

We could go for CoL and grab Confucianism after researching Alphabet... Personally I like to go there since it just fits into my regular techs...

Pardon me? Confucianism is but *lightyears* away yet. Aside from the fact that Alphabet is nowhere on the path to Philosophy, we'll be needing either (Meditation + Priesthood + Code of Laws + Philosophy) or (Mathematics + Currency + Code of Laws + Philosophy) to found Confucianism. It won't be happening within the next 30 Turns, probably not even within the next 40 Turns. You're planing a bit too far ahead, I think.

 

[wcil]

Heh, we might want to queue for construction. Early Catapults would make hell of a difference once we decide to siege the arabs.

 

[Stilgar08]

Pardon me? Confucianism is but *lightyears* away yet. Aside from the fact that Alphabet is nowhere on the path to Philosophy, we'll be needing either (Meditation + Priesthood + Code of Laws + Philosophy) or (Mathematics + Currency + Code of Laws + Philosophy) to found Confucianism. It won't be happening within the next 30 Turns, probably not even within the next 40 Turns. You're planing a bit too far ahead, I think.

I know! You asked about religion that would be the way to go for me... I didn't mean right now but mid-term...

 

[Stilgar08]

Heh, we might want to queue for construction. Early Catapults would make hell of a difference once we decide to siege the arabs.

I'm more of a builder-type early on and would go for city-structures as priority - What do the others think?

 

[Stilgar08]

Before we rush to that, maybe you could tell us which techs exactly you're expected to trade in from our neighbors? Given the character of their leaders and their estimated progress, which Techs do you think they'll have that we'd able to trade in? Going blindly for Alphabet so as to trade Techs without any analysis of what to anticipate would be somehow irresponsible, in my opinion.

Well, not necesserily. It's more of an "let's see what we can get" approach. I believe alphabet will turn out to be useful in any case and the sooner we have the ability to trade techs the better, IMHO.

Of course I wouldn't trade everything which is in the way. It has to be reasonable, but I couldn't figure which tech-way our neighbours chose. Let's check I'd say... There's no chance we can get priesthood first without tech trading, right? Maybe it would be a good idea? Just asking questions in order to verify public opinion. I didn't say that's good, we'll have to see how it turns out...

 

[Stilgar08]

Blkbird was so kind to send me the save (Thank you!) and I took a thorough look at the situation!

After checking the save I have to say:

City placement

Outlook part 1: Territorial development and conflict

Southern region



As discussed by many of us before and mentioned by wcil right above, we should grab the Copper at the N end of the Southern Peninsula rather sooner than later. The narrow victory of securing the Horse should have taught us that we're not the only nation trying to expand, and that so far we've been too self-centric about our own plans, neglecting possible moves of our opponents.

I still believe spot A (as marked in the map) is the best settling point. The alternative suggested by wcil, A1, is not bad, either. If we do settle at A1 instead of A, we should build another city later at A2.

I agree that spot A makes perfect sense for the next city to get established and I will produce a settler asap. I will take the risk (if there aren't heavy objections here, of course?!?) to not produce an escort but to postpone that for later (until we are done with a library in Beshbalik respectively until Beshbalik grows +1 citizen or the new city builds it itself...)

The settler will have poor protection by scouts respectively our warrior (don't know right now where he exactly is (I'm @work and cannot check right now))but I strongly feel we should close this bottleneck with a city asap! (Without open borders Saladin hereby would need to go to the peninsula with triremes to get ther ).

If the spot gets taken by one of our opponents, I'd settle near the marble (spot c) I feel it's a stronger place for a city strategy-wise to begin with than B (although B is a very good spot)...

We have to be careful here since I think we'll have to slow down expansion from city 4 until we built up some infrastructure (I'm concerned about our finances, Ladies and Gentlemen!)

infrastructure and production

Before claiming the copper by building culture in the new city I'd built an archer in the new city (if Beshbalik couldn't do the job earlier) (I know it's not perfect but better than using Karakorum for that!)

If Beshbalik isn't busy improving our civ's defenses I would go for a worker because we don't have enough for 4 cities (Which we will have when finishing the lib there) and after that (might very well not be my turn any more) I'd set up another workboat there... this would mean no triremes right now...

As a rule of thump I try to have one worker per city... We have 3 cities right now and 2 workers...

I strongly feel Karakorum could do very good with a library and put up a specialist after finishing worker (in 1) and settler afterwards. We would start with GPP AND would have slowed down growth of the city... Comments??

As for Turfan: Will take a while to get the lib done, afterwards (not my turn I think) worker? and/or barracks (city in the eye of the storm later on)

This means: NO wonders immediately.... Comments?

worker-actions

There's so much to be done: They will be VERY busy! I'd grab the wheat near Beshbalik first and cultivate other resources where possible. Another priority would be a road to city4...

Research

It's still alphabet to me! Masonry would be nice to have as well, but my second priority would be Metal-casting (good points there, BlkBird! )... I'm not setting IW as top-priority right now. I generally tend to research sailing later in the game, any comments on how to use it right now (except as bargain??)...

diplomacy

We definitely need to slow down growth but so does Egypt. I agree that we should try to get on friendly terms with them. I'd offer open borders to Hatshepsut. What do you think?
Saladin will be the bad guy of choice for us...

That's it for now! I'm waiting for replies and will start playing in 24hours after checking this thread!

 

[Blkbird]

I agree that spot A makes perfect sense for the next city to get established and I will produce a settler asap. I will take the risk (if there aren't heavy objections here, of course?!?) to not produce an escort but to postpone that for later (until we are done with a library in Beshbalik respectively until Beshbalik grows +1 citizen or the new city builds it itself...)

The settler will have poor protection by scouts respectively our warrior (don't know right now where he exactly is (I'm @work and cannot check right now))but I strongly feel we should close this bottleneck with a city asap! (Without open borders Saladin hereby would need to go to the peninsula with triremes to get ther ).

Sending the Settler out without escort seems very unwise. Why don't we proceed like the last time - send Karakorum New Archer with him and immdiately train a replacement to guard Karakorum.

 

[Blkbird]

Before claiming the copper by building culture in the new city I'd built an archer in the new city (if Beshbalik couldn't do the job earlier) (I know it's not perfect but better than using Karakorum for that!)

If Beshbalik isn't busy improving our civ's defenses I would go for a worker because we don't have enough for 4 cities (Which we will have when finishing the lib there) and after that (might very well not be my turn any more) I'd set up another workboat there... this would mean no triremes right now...

As a rule of thump I try to have one worker per city... We have 3 cities right now and 2 workers...

I don't understand. First, Karakorum has no building it needs to build immediately, so it should natually train Settler, Archer (and maybe Worker), in that order.

Second, our thrid Worker will be finished right next turn. If you think the Copper City needs a Worker right away, send this new one with the Settler. Karakorum doesn't have an emergent need of Worker as of now.

@Stilgar08: No offense, but you really should take a look at the savegame first before you make any plans. Please also be specific when you say things like "building infrastructure first" - what kind of infrastructure (buildings?) do you mean?

 

[Blkbird]

I strongly feel Karakorum could do very good with a library and put up a specialist after finishing worker (in 1) and settler afterwards. We would start with GPP AND would have slowed down growth of the city... Comments??

Why do you feel Karakorum needs a Library? Because I don't see the need at all. As of Specialist - I personally wouldn't start with that so soon, but it's a matter of style.

We don't *have* to slow down growth - we have Slavery, remember? If the Population maxes out, just Hurry Production.

As for Turfan: Will take a while to get the lib done, afterwards (not my turn I think) worker? and/or barracks (city in the eye of the storm later on)

It won't take *that* long if you help it with chopping. Same for Beshbalik. If you don't like to chop (not now or not ever), please tell the reasons.

worker-actions

There's so much to be done: They will be VERY busy! I'd grab the wheat near Beshbalik first and cultivate other resources where possible. Another priority would be a road to city4...

For Beshbalik I recommend chopping the Forest where the Worker is right now and then Hurry Production via Slavery. That should finish the Library within the next 10 Turns. Getting the Library in Beshbalik and Turfan finished has definitely a higher priority than cultivating that Wheat, I think.

 

[Stilgar08]

@Stilgar08: No offense, but you really should take a look at the savegame first before you make any plans.

I don't take it as offense. It's constructive! I wrote all of this AFTER I had a thorough look at the save AND your screenshots...

No offense here either, but read my post more thoroughly, please. I pointed out, that Karakorum finishes worker in 1, that we'll have 3 workers then, but after settling in spot A) we will be short on them (=4cities and 3 workers) and so forth... So I've read your posts and checked on the savegame...

Sending the Settler out without escort seems very unwise. Why don't we proceed like the last time - send Karakorum New Archer with him and immdiately train a replacement to guard Karakorum.

Easy: It takes turns therefore we loose time! Egypt already is far ahead in culture and I would like to come up with a counter (and start on GPP...).
I thought about sending the capital-archer with the new settler as well, but not to build a replacement in Karakorum immediately... I have to confess, that I sometimes tend to postpone production of military units...

I don't understand. First, Karakorum has no building it needs to build immediately, so it should natually train Settler, Archer (and maybe Worker), in that order.

As you pointed out Karakorum has happiness issues. When we build a library we raise culture and can employ a scientist, hereby raising GPP and lowering growth-rate.

Furthermore I don't think we will be able to build 2-3 more cities without getting serious money-problems, therefore making Karakorum a settler-factory isn't advisable at the moment, IMO.

Second, our third Worker will be finished right next turn. If you think the Copper City needs a Worker right away, send this new one with the Settler. Karakorum doesn't have an emergent need of Worker as of now.

It won't take *that* long if you help it with chopping. Same for Beshbalik. If you don't like to chop (not now or not ever), please tell the reasons.

I disagree. I strongly feel we don't have enough workers to fulfil the tasks! I pointed that out in my previous posts. Just as an example: Wheat near Beshbalik isn't cultivated yet, our copper city has to get improved and we need a better connection between cities (roads), Plus last, but not least chopping (I don't have a problem with that @all - has to be done in reasonable places and you mentioned a few good ones in your outlook)

...and then Hurry Production via Slavery

This is one of the reasons of our misunderstandings: I tend to very rarely use the slavery-rushing. I think keeping citizens if possible is more valuable in most cases. I use slavery only in emergencies (no or not enough protection for a city or ressource and an attack is coming). I even quite often tend to not change to slavery when possible, if it takes a turn of anarchy...

Getting the Library in Beshbalik and Turfan finished has definitely a higher priority than cultivating that Wheat, I think

You know, Civ is so cool, because you can play it in so many different styles! I would want to grab the ressource and the bonuses from cultivating that wheat first (raising growth signifcantly in Beshbalik) before chop to help production! I see your point, though, but cultivating the wheat doesn't only give us the ressource but gives extra outcome on that tile, as well...

Stilgar

 

[Blkbird]

This is one of the reasons of our misunderstandings: I tend to very rarely use the slavery-rushing. I think keeping citizens if possible is more valuable in most cases. I use slavery only in emergencies (no or not enough protection for a city or ressource and an attack is coming). I even quite often tend to not change to slavery when possible, if it takes a turn of anarchy...

In my personal single games, I don't adopt Slavery at all - because I don't like it. But that's not a good enough reason for a demogame, here in a collective play only the (brutal) facts count. And fact is, we *have* adopted Slavery; fact is also, you *do* ackowledge Karakorum's Population is at limit; fact is further more, you *want* to have a higher production speed in our cities. Now, I really don't see how can simply denie the use of Slavery despite all that.

 

[Stilgar08]

BlkBird: I'm not denying the use of slavery at all! We can do that (use citizens to raise production)! No problem! But we have to weigh pro's and con's. Pro: faster production, con: loss of citizens. As I've pointed out: IMO, the loss of citizens is worse than building a library in Karakorum and slow down growth by starting with a specialist (Besides the fact, that the lib has further plus-points-).
Any other opinions than yours and mine? Or maybe backup here for BlkBird or for me?

 

[Blkbird]

But we have to weigh pro's and con's. Pro: faster production, con: loss of citizens. As I've pointed out: IMO, the loss of citizens is worse than building a library in Karakorum and slow down growth by starting with a specialist (Besides the fact, that the lib has further plus-points-).

I'm not saying you must not build Library in Karakorum. But Karakorum's Population is going to exceed the limit long before the Library is finished. You can either (1) simply "Avoid Growth" and thus waste the food or (2) apply Slavery. You're talking about "losing citizens", which doesn't make sense since we can't keep the next citizen anyway. So why waste it?

Slavery in Karakorum has nothing to do with what you want to build there. As long as you're not going to train Settlers and Workers non-stop (which you've said you don't want to), the Population overflow is practically forcing us to use Slavery.

In short: "loss of citizen" may be a con, but "loss of extra citizen which cannot be kept" is no con at all.

 

[DaveShack]

Aha, a significant debate.

Here's the tradeoff.

A library will increase science, so would a scientist specialist. Which one increases science more? Is there something else which can be built after the library is finished, which would benefit from starting earlier? Would pop-rushing drop population by the 1 point which will be restored, or more than one point? Will unhappieness increase to the point that fewer citizens would be working? (In Civ4, unhappy citizens refuse to work, so you lose their hammers and possibly gold).

Proponents of one or both side of the debate should put up some facts for our consideration.

 

[wcil]

I think we need to gear our capital more towards units and production, while Beshabalik provides our settlers and workers. Frankly, I never feel truly safe till frontier towns (at the moment all our cities) have two or more defenders.

Secondly, we need escorts for our attack force as well, and a couple of extra archers never hurt anybody (They can be redirected to newer cities as well).

With regards to Egypt getting the culture upperhand on us... They're supposed to, what with their +2 culture / turn bonus.

~~~~~~~~~

With regards to our new city, send an archer from our Capital down. We'll replace him ASAP, then follow with the settler. We need to hook up to copper, so that we get swordsmen soon, as well.

 

[Blkbird]

With regards to Egypt getting the culture upperhand on us... They're supposed to, what with their +2 culture / turn bonus.

Absolutely the same view here. But thanks for putting it so clear. We as a nation don't need to (and infact can't) be ahead in *every* aspect so early in the game. I don't see why we have to have a culture upperhand right now, either.

With regards to our new city, send an archer from our Capital down. We'll replace him ASAP, then follow with the settler. We need to hook up to copper, so that we get swordsmen soon, as well.

You have my vote.

Regarding the "Slavery in Karakorum" issue, I'm still waiting for an answer of my question, why losing an extra citizen which we can't keep anyway is an actual loss.