(3-09b) Counterproposal: Alternative God of War & Goddess of Protection

[Legen]

Counterproposal to (3-12) Proposal: God of War & Goddess of Protection Tweaks.

Counterproposal:

God of War and Goddess of Protection are adjusted as follows instead (changes from the original proposal in italics):

God of War
Faith from Kills (175% of unit CS), and Melee units heal for 10 points after killing a military unit.
+22 from Barracks.

Goddess of Protection
+3 from Palace, +2 from Walls.
+10 HP healing in friendly territory.

Spoiler Details :

The unit classes that will benefit from the "heal on kill" will be the same as the ones that benefit from Honor's Dominance: Recon, Melee, Gunpowder, Mounted Melee, Armor, Naval Melee.

Rationale:

This counterproposal focus on ensuring both pantheons retain strong alternative effects beyond their yields, which is a distinctive part of their current design relative to other pantheons. I don't think that the game needs more pantheons with strong faith scaling over later eras; at most, it is enough to ensure their faith output isn't too variable.

God of War's heal on kill is a natural addition to the pantheon's focus on killing units, reducing downtime during barbarian hunts. It is also a fun addition to its playstyle that doesn't lead to yield inflation and that remains useful when warring against a major civ, which this pantheon incentivizes you to do.

Goddess of Protection's yield issue is partially related to Walls still being a cost inefficient source of yields at 21. Production-wise, you generally spend 32.5 production for 1 or 1 per turn with the shrine and monument, and do so without a maintenance cost. Walls at a 21 are worth 97.5 with no additional yields, and with a maintenance cost, making them cost inefficient at their base 110 cost. This inefficiency isn't addressed by the proposed faith from city strength, as the extra garrison will cost 40 from a city at best, plus its maintenance cost. Simply adding an extra yield to the Wall makes it actually desirable to build, and compensates for the barracks' removal from the pantheon.

The slow founding speed concern can be addressed by adjusting the Palace's yield towards pure faith, instead of the current branching with culture; I don't think we need to add a long term faith scaling effect in every city at expense of the healing effect. Other scaling pantheons already exist, while this is the only standard pantheon focused on defensive capabilities.

 

[Lysam]

Healing ten points on kill is a massive, very powerful thing that I feel shouldn't be on the pantheon, and I don't like the fact that you would be able to combine it with authority. On the other hand, maybe it will make some authority AIs to be more menacing and actually found with this pantheon, which would be a good. Unsure. I also thing yields on pillage, probably science, would be much more fitting and fun than a barracks bonus.

 

[Legen]

Healing ten points on kill is a massive, very powerful thing that I feel shouldn't be on the pantheon, and I don't like the fact that you would be able to combine it with authority. On the other hand, maybe it will make some authority AIs to be more menacing and actually found with this pantheon, which would be a good. Unsure. I also thing yields on pillage, probably science, would be much more fitting and fun than a barracks bonus.

When I tested locally, 10 HP on kill was fun, but not a major difference. It's rarely something that can save a unit from a counterattack, or shave multiple turns of idle healing. It does help keeping the barbarian hunt going, though, and gives something to look forward to in your future wars. I tried to keep the heal small to not synergize too much with Authority's Dominance.

I think Pillage would be interesting on an enhancer or similar, not so much on a pantheon. At this stage of the game, your neighbors are still unlocking their improvements and setting up their secondary cities. Chances are that an early war will result in only two or three improvements pillaged, especially if your military keeps staying around their lands and intimidating their workers to stay away from that city's resources.

 

[alchx]

+10 hp healing in the Goddess of Protection is a lot. Garrisons in cities will gain +25hp if they sleep one turn. Such a garrison is almost impossible to kill in the early and mid game. This means that the city always receives a defense bonus from the garrison and the incoming damage is distributed. In addition, the AoE system has now been reworked, as far as I understand, and garrisons in cities and fortresses will not receive collateral damage.
Together with March +10hp allows units to be activated almost continuously. In the current game, I have the Fountain of Youth (also +10hp) and it's very strong - it can also be weakened, but not necessarily, after all, it's a wonder of nature and it should be strong.

God of War - instead of +10hp per kill, which is a clone of Authority, you can give the bonus 'units get +20% experience more' (but there may be difficulties with rounding fractional numbers). The army will progress faster, Great Generals and Admirals will be born more often. And this will directly encourage the conduct of active hostilities.
Or give a generally unique bonus - Great Generals and Admirals require 20% (40-50%) less points. Many Generals - many fortresses, including the ability to create a tunnel directly to the enemy capital, +1unit supply. Many admirals - many luxury resources, +2 unit supply.

 

[pineappledan]

If my proposal doesn’t pass sponsorship, this one at least hits the major issue without new code.

I really don’t think the heal on kill is a good idea. Too much potential stacking with authority and other unique heal on kill mechanics. How are you coding this heal anyhow? With a dummy promotion given by the GoWar?

 

[Legen]

How are you coding this heal anyhow? With a dummy promotion given by the GoWar?

Not much different from how Dominance's heal is coded, but through 'Belief_FreePromotions' instead of 'Policy_FreePromotions'.

I really don’t think the heal on kill is a good idea. Too much potential stacking with authority and other unique heal on kill mechanics.

My main concern is that God of war would be giving relatively little outside of faith, which already requires you to be more active than other pantheons for comparatively similar gains. Many pantheons that are far more passive tend to give more alternative yields, plus some benefit or synergy in other areas. For instance, Goddess of Wisdom gives more science than God of War gives production, and contributes towards great scientists. Goddess of Beauty gives both artist and engineer points just from selecting it. Goddess of the Home gives 25% growth on top of the food. God of the Expanse gives 25% border growth, which synergizes with Tribute, while providing similar yields to the proposed God of War for less effort.

Again, potential synergy with given starts or uniques aren't new, nor I think it is a bad design. And for God of War, I think some support for warring has merit; if this pantheon requires you to take such risks as an aggressive war to not fall behind on other pantheons, it makes sense to provide some militaristic support to accomplish it.

God of War - instead of +10hp per kill, which is a clone of Authority, you can give the bonus 'units get +20% experience more' (but there may be difficulties with rounding fractional numbers). The army will progress faster, Great Generals and Admirals will be born more often. And this will directly encourage the conduct of active hostilities.
Or give a generally unique bonus - Great Generals and Admirals require 20% (40-50%) less points. Many Generals - many fortresses, including the ability to create a tunnel directly to the enemy capital, +1unit supply. Many admirals - many luxury resources, +2 unit supply.

The bonus experience would partially clone the Warrior Monk follower belief that passed last congress. And bonus experience on a pantheon has to deal with the 45 xp cap when fighting barbarians and city-states, this effect is better reserved for later belief types. Similar rationale for generals and admirals, since points towards them aren't generated directly from fighting barbarians and city-states. Those effects would be too focused on specific civs that really push toward Ancient Era warfare, and wouldn't be of much use for those that prefer to delay warring to Classical or Medieval. Ideally, the pantheon's effect would be convenient to use already at Ancient Era.

 

[ma_kuh]

Would the unique aspect of giving 1 or 2 GGeneral pt/turn be too much of a mold breaker? It would be unique, at least.

 

[alchx]

Would the unique aspect of giving 1 or 2 GGeneral pt/turn be too much of a mold breaker? It would be unique, at least.

Yeah not bad. +2 GG and +2 GA per turn.

Having founded a pantheon around turn 40, by turn 90-100, 50-60% of the GA / GG scale will accumulate, if you do not fight at all with other empires.

After 90-100 turns (the moment the religion was founded), you can start any war, since our religious race is over, buildings of faith have been built everywhere, and you can switch the focus of cities to the mass production of the army and navy.

 

[pineappledan]

Not much different from how Dominance's heal is coded, but through 'Belief_FreePromotions' instead of 'Policy_FreePromotions'.

Yeah not sure if I’m a fan of another little promotion like that. You don’t have a unique promotion icon for it either.

I think God of War isn’t as bad as you’re saying because its faith scales into late game better than other pantheons since it’s based on unit strength. You claim it needs some other hook, but the way it scales is sufficient.

With this formulation of protection, it’s just not a founder anymore. It’s the same yields as ancestor worship used to give to councils, but walls are much slower to get and build. india and early founders could still use it, but I would still pick a faster founder and more yield potential over the heal. I guess that’s the decision you want to put to congress though, because you’ve been explicit about wanting to hobble this pantheon’s founding potential in favor of more healing. I think that’s the wrong call; we have non-founder pantheons, like GoAC and Tutelary, but we don’t have non-founders that explicitly tie down a building. If you start with a civ that has synergy with walls, like a wall UB, then we are making it an overt design decision that you’re just SOL. I hope your terrain is good at least. Non-founders shouldn’t have a building unlock be so central to their makeup.

 

[Legen]

I can sponsor this.

 

[Recursive]

Proposal sponsored by Legen.

 

[Zakuzelo]

This is probably the best of the various War and Protection proposals knocking around right now. While I still don't think Protection needs to be changed at all, this is the only proposal to addresses the fact that Walls need a bigger boost than normal to be actually worth building in most cities. Hell, you could probably tune it even higher.
The God of War change's looks pretty fun to use too. I like how the heal-on-kill parallels with Protection's healing buff. Good synergy with Japan too, which is important considering they're losing their go-to pantheon with this. Could see myself picking it quite a lot.