3.9.3 impressions

[Ahriman]

It's worth separating out which category those beliefs are in, as pantheon beliefs should be weaker than others and founder beliefs should be stronger.

Fertility rites seems definitely off in numerical balance to me. We could cut it completely (as you say there is overlap with swords to ploughshares - though this requires peacefulness), or nerf it.
Just war/defender could probably drop down to ~30% or 33% and still be useful.

Feed the World definitely needs a nerf. It could be +1 food shrine +2 food temple and still be useful.
Oral tradition and open sky I think definitely need nerfs, they're much stronger than the more specific resource pantheon beliefs.

Didn't we nerf cerremonial burial from 1 happy per city to 1 happy per 2 cities?
And I think we buffed Mosques from 3 culture to 5 culture.

If it weren't such a pain to pull out all the current names/effects/categories of all the beliefs, I'd make a full set of balance suggestions and reshuffles.

 

[mystikx21]

Ceremonial Burial is 1 per 2 cities by default in BNW I believe. I didn't see it changed in the mod but I didn't check everywhere.

I'll probably do this up as a wikia page this weekend and parse them out by category to make it easier to reference changes.

I'd be fine with making the pasture/plantation ones +1c/+1faith like the other resource related functions. They're probably fine at +1 culture, they're just less useful in some games. At +2 culture they're basically an obvious powerhouse with a wide empire or even a pasture/plantation heavy start for a tall empire.

 

[Ahriman]

Ceremonial Burial is 1 per 2 cities by default in BNW I believe

Ah - maybe it was 1 per city in G&K and I am remembering that? Or maybe I am misremembering completely.

I'll probably do this up as a wikia page this weekend

They're probably fine at +1 culture, they're just less useful in some games

I think they're fine at +1 culture; culture in BNW is supposed to be fairly rare and hard to come by, and +1 culture from plantations (ie incense, spice, cotton, banana, silk, wine, dyes, etc.) is still probably as good as +2 or +1/+1 for any two resources.

I like that there are tradeoffs: pick something that really boosts just your local resources, or pick something that gives a more moderate boost but affects more resources.

 

[mystikx21]

I've updated the wikia page for now. for faith and some on armies.

I will keep at this over the weekend as time permits. I don't think the faith changes are all listed yet as some were moved in type of belief still that I need to check.

 

[Ahriman]

I'd say Oral Tradition and God of the Open Sky are probably too strong, as we mentioned.

On the face of it, messenger of the gods still looks weak - a tiny bit more science doesn't seem that valuable, I dunno. Does anyone know whether it is applied at the city level (and so gets university etc. % bonuses) or at the empire level?

People have reported that God of War is too much at 2 faith, I've never tried it, but it would be easy to scale back to 1 or 1.5.

25% from fertility rites seems like far too much. This is clearly stronger than founder or follower beliefs. Even at 10% its not bad, 15% would still be very good.

Gold and silver somehow don't seem to cluster much anymore, it's nearly always lone deposits, so formal liturgy is probably fairly weak. But that might be a mapscript issue with these resources.

Feed the world is much too strong, cut back to 2 food and it's still very good.
I think I'd revert tithe to 1 gold per 4.

Does church property give you gold for foreign cities following the religion or just your own?

Initiation rites and interfaith dialog just seems inherently weak as a concept, but I've never tried them.

Divine Inspiration could arguably be a Reformation belief.

Swords to Ploughshares is good, but it would still be good at 20%. It also helps show how crazy fertility rites is. Note that excess food stacks multiplicatively with stored food bonuses like aqueducts.

There seem to be a lot of beliefs missing from the list - Ceremonial burial, the building beliefs, etc.
We probably need more founder beliefs that reward you for spreading your religion widely. Otherwise beliefs that help you actively spreading your religion (like the various missionary/prophet ones) are a waste of slots.

Defender of the Faith and Just War if merged should arguably be back down to 20%.

Missionary zeal and Messiah still seem fundamentally weak, but I've never used them.

 

[jwerano]

Missionary zeal and Messiah still seem fundamentally weak, but I've never used them.

Messiah is my go to ability in most games. If you are in a tight race for that 2nd great prophet to be the first to complete your religion this will often turn the tides in your favor by making the 2nd great prophet 25% cheaper. It also typically lets me get 2-3 extra great prophets/holy sites before the industrial which can be essential to different strategies like conversion wars, and faith/culture stacking if you complete piety. Holy sites are basically Chateaus that can get their full +3/+3 gold/culture early and also give +8 faith.

Another great thing about it is that it doesn't require you to do any spreading for it to achieve its value and lets me play a more passive religion game while still getting good benefits. I really like how not all the beliefs in this tier are about spreading religion and that corresponds to religions such as Judaism that are exclusive and dont seek members beyond those born into it.

 

[Ahriman]

Thanks for the feedback.

If you are in a tight race for that 2nd great prophet to be the first to complete your religion this will often turn the tides in your favor

But why is this very valuable, particularly if your religion is one that doesn't do much for your econonmy because you've spent a key slot on this?
I don't see any obvious bonuses from being the first to enhance - and if you're doing a religion heavy strategy you'll probably have that from the Piety great prophet anyway.

Another great thing about it is that it doesn't require you to do any spreading for it to achieve its value and lets me play a more passive religion game while still getting benefits good benefits

I guess... but what good benefits are you really getting out of it? Just a touch of gold and culture from holy sites (and that requires investing in the Piety tree, which has significant opportunity costs if you're planning to play a religiously passive game).
+6 gold/+6 culture per turn from a couple of holy sites doesn't really seem worth an entire religion slot.

 

[jwerano]

Reliquary. +500 faith per great person. The AI picks reliquary every time if it completes its religion before you I believe so its essential to get there first. Once you get your 3rd great prophet you will instantly get your 4th, then your 5 and 6th or even 7th will come soon after through reliquary instant faith from prophets and other great people. In the middle ages the culture and gold are significant. There is definitely a large opportunity cost from completing the piety tree but if I complete piety I often get the reformation belief that lets me purchase all great people in the industrial age. The holy sites help alot with late game faith for these purchases and this reformation belief frees me from having to take the 2 dud policies in the rationalism tree just to purchase great scientists, or the 3 less essential policies in tradition for purchasing the great engineers.

Plus being able to purchase great artists for chain late game golden ages or great writers for free policies in the late game is invaluable too. If you collect lots of artifacts you can get high base culture, then if you make sure that you win World Fair which I have never lost you can produce great writers that will allow you to get 1.5-2 policies each, since the culture produced by the great writer depends on your culture yield on the turn they are spawned. The holy sites contribute+ 18-21 base culture in my captical which is further multiplied by hermitage, and radio towers. Better yet if you use your great scientists to rush for Bell labs, then get Sydney opera house before you spawn the great writers for even higher culture before spamming the great writers.

After researching all/most techs in the same tier as refrigeration and achieving the world fair bonus everything passes by in a blur. I tech from modern era to information era and and get 6-10 policies in under 20 turns by using great scientists/engineers/artists/writers at just the right time to dominate late game. Plus reliquary makes each of these great people give you even more instant faith for more great people.

Reliquary is undoubtedly too strong, or the other beliefs except the combat bonus near cities that have your religion are mostly of little strategic value. Honestly the occasions when I fail to get reliquary I dont even want to pick other beliefs because they feel insignificant next to it.

Thanks for the feedback.


But why is this very valuable, particularly if your religion is one that doesn't do much for your econonmy because you've spent a key slot on this?
I don't see any obvious bonuses from being the first to enhance - and if you're doing a religion heavy strategy you'll probably have that from the Piety great prophet anyway.


I guess... but what good benefits are you really getting out of it? Just a touch of gold and culture from holy sites (and that requires investing in the Piety tree, which has significant opportunity costs if you're planning to play a religiously passive game).
+6 gold/+6 culture per turn from a couple of holy sites doesn't really seem worth an entire religion slot.