3.9.3 impressions

[Ahriman]

The yield from chopping forests is much too high - it lets you chop out settlers and wonders in the early game very quickly.

The Piety opener is much too useful as an opener and doesn't really make sense for Piety.

Religion is dull and there isn't good stuff to spend faith on with most most the good belief picks moved to the Piety finisher; a player who wants to play religiously is forced to finish Piety - though a military player is not forced to finish honor, an expansionist player is not forced to finish liberty, a city state player is not forced to finish patronage, etc.

Barbarians seem lackluster: the only thing that is annoying are the ships, which show up very early and can heal while moving.

The Republic policy (free defensive buildings) is weak and not very useful. Representation (+1 happy from trade connections) feels weak because trade connections give so little gold that they are not worth pursuing - buildling a road network is a waste of time until there is nothing else to do with your workers.
2 workers from citizenship is too much, and the free settler from collective rule comes too soon (there should probably be a pre-requisite policy, early expansion is too easy).

In Piety, Meditation is good (extra faith from shrines and temples and reduced faith costs), while Unity (golden age) and charity (% gold from temples) are dull and weak.

Villages giving 2 gold while other improvements all give 1 is very odd and makes villages too good. Their freshwater boost also comes early, so they can be giving 3 yield while other improvements give 1.

I like the "Mercy, Wrath" etc labels on city capture, I think that has great flavor. It's slightly confusing that they all seem to give the same warmonger penalty though - when something is displayed across the three different options, that would make you think that different options would give different penalties, but that didn't seem to be the case.
[edited for clarity]

Playing as Greece, when I captured a city it converted people to my religion. Is that meant to happen? I don't see anything I have that would cause that - I presumed that would be a result of some UA or religious belief or whatever, but I got the bonus anyway.

Are there really large AI experience bonuses somewhere? A Danish composite bowman seemed to have indirect fire very early on (shooting over hills) and a Danish berserker seemed to have 3 movement points early on.

Though I don't like the idea of a Patronage policy revealing all city states, that effect also didn't seem to work (I had the opener, but didn't see any new city states other than the handful I'd discovered).

Gold from pillaging seems very high - could we move this to the Honor tree? Otherwise raiding is really really good: it heals your unit, weakens your enemy economy *and* gives a ton of gold. Moving the heal from pillage to Honor tree might also be interesting. In wartime it's very profitable to bring a worker along with me to repair the enemy's improvements so that I can pillage them again.

The hoplite's phalanx promotion says it gives +50% vs mounted units, but when I attack a horseman, in the combat preview I only seem to get +10% vs mounted units.

As Greece I seem to get Landsknecht at Civil Service rather than Pikemen, and my hoplites can't upgrade to the Landsknecht.
[Oh wait, it looks like Pikemen have been moved to metal casting.]

The Bireme has a +50% bonus vs cities. I don't think that is desirable for an early game ranged ship - it is as good as a catapult, and more mobile, no setup, and lower tech. And it has access to another promotion which gives a further +30%.

The early game techs are crowded with stuff - except pottery, which now has nothing except the granary.

Missionaries seem very expensive, which devalues faith as a yield.

AIs seem to be really racing ahead in tech, perhaps too quickly.

Engineer gives 2 production but merchant gives 3 gold: why?

All lumbermills are boosted, whether they have fresh water or not, at machinery. Why? There needs to be a coherent design for improvement yields but there doesn't seem to be one.

 

[Kivin]

You really hit the nail on the head with these. Some of these have actively annoyed me while playing (but, CEG is still wonderful!) and others have annoyed me without me realizing it. Reading them makes me go "oh yeah, that!".

For whatever reason, I actually like the higher chop. Early game is abysmally slow and having a high chop makes it much more bearable.

I think the whole Piety tree needs a little work, not just the opener. Beliefs as a whole need a full review. This isn't just CEG's fault; Vanilla had poor balance, but in CEG many beliefs just seem uninteresting or not useful to me. Missionary cost seemed alright in my last game until mid-to-late game when I started becoming active on the second major landmass. At this stage, forcing my religion upon them was completely out of the question because of the prohibitive cost of missionaries and prophets. I had 5/5 Piety tree, virtually every faith wonder, and about 5 faith landmarks.

I actually find the free defensive buildings policy quite useful, if situational. It's saved me from forfeiting a game once, actually. Walls cost something like 410 hammers? That's non-trivial when you spawn next to an aggressive leader.

Did GEM give gold bonuses for defeating barbarians, not just clearing their camps? I seem to recall that, and miss it as an incentive to deal with barbarians. In their present state, they just irritate me.

I think the city capture UI is just reading the warmonger penalty from the game and is it isn't affected by which stance you choose. I could be wrong. I really like being able to axe half the city pop.

AIs definitely do push techs a lot harder than Vanilla. I just played a game at difficulty 3 to get acclimated with the new CEG and despite having an excellent start, Jesuit belief, and cranking out a great deal of beakers, the computers were blasting right by me.

 

[Ahriman]

Triremes and galleasses etc can cross ocean once astronomy is revealed? I don't think that is desirable.

The change to have the Louvre give free archaeologists was a great idea.

The UI in the city state window that used to show how much bonus you got from that city state seems to be missing.

Protectionism is far too strong, as is the Wealth opener. Caravans is terrible. And you already know what I think about Mercenary Army

An idea for Aesthetics: faster production of archaeologists. This is more interesting than faster production of buildings because it isn't quite as rigidly set by the number of buildings you have.

Republic could be improved if it gained back the +5% production while constructing buildings, which fits well in Liberty because with many cities you have to use a lot of production to get your buildings up.

The cargo mechanic is odd, and I don't think should be in the core mod by default. One thing it lets you do is chain movement: I move an embarked great person 4 tiles onto a tile with my frigate on it, and then I move the frigate an additional 5 tiles, and it brings the great person with it. The next turn, I move the frigate 5 tiles, and then move the great person an additional 4 tiles. So in 2 turns I've managed to move 18 tiles.

The hydro plant costs too much production to build to really be worthwhile. Even for a good city with ~8 river tiles, which with multipliers might be worth ~11 production, the payback period is over 50 turns, even excluding the 3 gold per turn maintenance cost.

 

[stackpointer]

I'll try to answer any non-balance (mostly bugs) questions you may have. Your post is a little large so forgive me if I miss something.

===

"I like the "Mercy, Wrath" etc labels on city capture, I think that has great flavor. It's slightly confusing that they all seem to give the same warmonger penalty though - when something is displayed across the three different options, that would make you think that different options would give different penalties, but that didn't seem to be the case."

Modifying warmongering penalties would require a DLL mod. However, you don't get additional warmongering points for razing in vanilla BNW either.

===

"Playing as Greece, when I captured a city it converted people to my religion. Is that meant to happen? I don't see anything I have that would cause that - I presumed that would be a result of some UA or religious belief or whatever, but I got the bonus anyway."

You'll have to describe this one a little better. This could be caused by the sudden decrease in population causing you to suddenly have a majority in religious citizens. But I can't be sure without more information.

===

"Are there really large AI experience bonuses somewhere? A Danish composite bowman seemed to have indirect fire very early on (shooting over hills) and a Danish berserker seemed to have 3 movement points early on."

There is probably a experience modifier somewhere for the AI, probably from the time that the AI was suffering from huge performance problems early in the beta. I believe the Berserker has 3 movement in vanilla BNW.

===

"Though I don't like the idea of a Patronage policy revealing all city states, that effect also didn't seem to work (I had the opener, but didn't see any new city states other than the handful I'd discovered)."

The code for the Patronage opener is a WIP. Please report any policy bugs here: http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=516218

===

"The hoplite's phalanx promotion says it gives +50% vs mounted units, but when I attack a horseman, in the combat preview I only seem to get +10% vs mounted units."

This is a bug. Will be addressed in the next patch.

===

"AIs seem to be really racing ahead in tech, perhaps too quickly."

This should be solved in the next patch. More information here: http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=455546&page=6

===

"Did GEM give gold bonuses for defeating barbarians, not just clearing their camps? I seem to recall that, and miss it as an incentive to deal with barbarians. In their present state, they just irritate me."

There are several options in CAT/Cat_Options.sql and CEG/CEP_Options.sql to make barbarians more manageable. You can modify their healing, upgrades, your bonuses, and how much exp you can farm from them. You can discuss it more here: http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=516185

===

"The UI in the city state window that used to show how much bonus you got from that city state seems to be missing."

You'll have to describe this one in more detail. Is this a vanilla BNW feature that's missing? Could you provide a screenshot or more information?

 

[Ahriman]

Modifying warmongering penalties would require a DLL mod. However, you don't get additional warmongering points for razing in vanilla BNW either.

That's fine - but would it be less confusing then to remove the text? It's a small issue either way.

You'll have to describe this one a little better. This could be caused by the sudden decrease in population causing you to suddenly have a majority in religious citizens. But I can't be sure without more information.

A nearby Danish city had no religious followers of any religion. I captured it, and then it had 2 followers of my religion (which at that point was majority religion only in my capital, I'm not sure if it had any followers outside the capital).

You'll have to describe this one in more detail. Is this a vanilla BNW feature that's missing?

No, it was in previous versions of GEM, it's not in vanilla BNW. I forget exactly how it worked, but when I click on a city state in the main screen and bring up the city state screen menu (where I can give a gift, give/revoke protection, ask for tribute, etc) there used to be UI element where it displayed how much yield I was getting per turn from that city state (in culture or food or faith) or how many turns it would be until I received a free military unit. When I pressed the "give a gift" button, in the mouseover text over each gold option it would tell me what the marginal increase in yields that I would get from giving that gift would be (if that gift was large enough to push me into friend or ally status). It is now much more difficult to see how much culture or faith or whatever I am getting from any particular city state, nor can I see how many turns until I get a military unit.

* * *
Longswords upgrade to gatling guns - this seems very odd, surely they should upgrade to muskets.

 

[stackpointer]

That's fine - but would it be less confusing then to remove the text? It's a small issue either way.

This is the vanilla BNW warmongering warning. I don't see a reason to remove the text as that would be removing functionality vs the base game.

A nearby Danish city had no religious followers of any religion. I captured it, and then it had 2 followers of my religion (which at that point was majority religion only in my capital, I'm not sure if it had any followers outside the capital).

Religion or pantheon? I think pantheons automatically spread to your cities before you gain a religion.[/QUOTE]

No, it was in previous versions of GEM, it's not in vanilla BNW. I forget exactly how it worked, but when I click on a city state in the main screen and bring up the city state screen menu (where I can give a gift, give/revoke protection, ask for tribute, etc) there used to be UI element where it displayed how much yield I was getting per turn from that city state (in culture or food or faith) or how many turns it would be until I received a free military unit. When I pressed the "give a gift" button, in the mouseover text over each gold option it would tell me what the marginal increase in yields that I would get from giving that gift would be (if that gift was large enough to push me into friend or ally status). It is now much more difficult to see how much culture or faith or whatever I am getting from any particular city state, nor can I see how many turns until I get a military unit.

Many of the UI improvements from GEM have not been implemented yet. You'll have to wait until they do.

 

[ExpiredReign]

Are there really large AI experience bonuses somewhere? A Danish composite bowman seemed to have indirect fire very early on (shooting over hills) and a Danish berserker seemed to have 3 movement points early on.

That is probably the Danish super embarkation ability. It made me stop and go "woah what the..."
It is simply the ability to not expend all their movement points upon landing and thus move an extra step or two on land.

Although, I haven't re-checked it, I think it might override the penalties on terrain that they may usually face. ie if they are already on land and move through marsh they take longer to move, the same as everyone else, but if they disembark and land on marsh no penalty seems to hinder them. Might like to check that, it may just be a incorrect observation by me.

 

[mystikx21]

The longsword upgrade to gatling guns has been a longstanding issue for me as well. Agreed, it should be muskets. I don't follow the upgrade paths there.

Ditto the city connections being too weak as an issue. That's been a hot button for months now. I don't understand the rationale for the weaker status of these and it could help with any AI economy problems because they will build roads.

Forest chop looks like it could be reduced at least from the other thread. 40 might at least be acceptable relative to the current 100; 80 would be essentially meaningless as a change. If this is combined with some bumps to pastures et al, that might make an overall yields balance for villages and mills appealing to deal with both issues in one shot.

I think the bonus to building production might be okay as a boost alongside the walls. It still does not play well with the Great Wall in that tree.

Pretty sure the AI's had XP bonuses on units for a long time going back to VEM/GEM.

It sounds like a thread on piety, some adjustments to aesthetics and commerce, and abolishing the reveal all effect in patronage are the policy effects that require some discussion. Which is more or less what was expected coming in from looking at those trees before.

Edit: Expired, I'm pretty sure the Berserkers are supposed to have 3 moves. They will move faster with the Danes super embarked also, but they're supposed to be faster.

 

[stackpointer]

You no longer get free walls with the great wall.

 

[ExpiredReign]

@mystikx21

Thanks, yeah I know and I am assuming @Ahriman would know that too. The extra movement they have just makes the embarkation promo that much more pronounced.

It is really weird to see them sail up to a small land mass, land, move a tile or two and then re-enter the water all in one go.

 

[mystikx21]

It's weird, but it's definitely fun.

The Great Wall change I hadn't paid attention to, thanks stack. It's been a while since I built it.

But. I'd still like to see the building bonus restored in there somewhere. The walls policy on its own is still weak and this gives it a passive and defensive effect of some use.

 

[Ahriman]

This is the vanilla BNW warmongering warning.

I don't recall seeing any warning about warmonger penalty on Annex/Puppet/Raze options in vanilla BNW.

It also doesn't function very effectively as a warning, because by the time you've captured the city, there is no option you can choose that doesn't give you warmonger penalty.

Religion or pantheon?

Religion. [Eastern Orthodox.]

That is probably the Danish super embarkation ability.

Nope, this was all on land. A Danish swordsman must have hit an upgrade goody hut that converted it into the berserker unit, and it was moving 3 tiles on land. I saw them move through a plains hill and then attack me, and I saw them move 3 tiles on plains.
And thne similarly early on a composite bowman was shooting at me over hills because it had the indirect fire promotion.
Anyway, I'm not sure any of this is a problem, I was just a bit surprised.

* * *
The frigate is dramatically more expensive than the galleon. Does that make sense?

 

[stackpointer]

I don't recall seeing any warning about warmonger penalty on Annex/Puppet/Raze options in vanilla BNW.

It also doesn't function very effectively as a warning, because by the time you've captured the city, there is no option you can choose that doesn't give you warmonger penalty.

It was a feature added in the latest patch. We can try finding a better place to put it but this is definitely a feature in vanilla BNW.

 

[Castar]

Are there really large AI experience bonuses somewhere? A Danish composite bowman seemed to have indirect fire very early on (shooting over hills) and a Danish berserker seemed to have 3 movement points early on.

AIs seem to be really racing ahead in tech, perhaps too quickly.

To add to that, does the AI get, like, huge production bonuses as well? I play on Prince, not exactly a brutal difficulty, and building wonders is impossible. The AI civs seem to build them all within a few turns of researching them. This could be simply a combination of their tech lead (even though I've modded the Prince research boost back down to 0) and the fact that they are unwittingly chopping all their forests, I don't know. Point is that up to the Renaisscance (the furthest I've played with this version of the mod) the only conceivable way to build any wonder at all seems to be to beeline the tech and then rush-chop it. And be lucky the AI doesn't still beat you to it. Somehow.

And while it was probably merely bad luck, this version of the mod is the first time playing Civ V that the AI beat me to a wonder I just rush-bought with a GE.

 

[Beelzibub]

That is probably the Danish super embarkation ability. It made me stop and go "woah what the..."
It is simply the ability to not expend all their movement points upon landing and thus move an extra step or two on land.

Although, I haven't re-checked it, I think it might override the penalties on terrain that they may usually face. ie if they are already on land and move through marsh they take longer to move, the same as everyone else, but if they disembark and land on marsh no penalty seems to hinder them. Might like to check that, it may just be a incorrect observation by me.

I've played a bit with Denmark and their disembark ability does seem a bit OP as the player, not sure if the AI makes best use of it.

What happens is that when starting a turn embarked, your units get 5 movement, but when you disembark onto land, instead of getting your full normal movement allowance (e.g 2 moves for a warrior) you get the remainder of the 5 move you started the turn with. Is this intentional? I would have thought they should just have their full normal movement.
So if you disembark onto land on move 1, you get 4 more movement points. These moves do appear to be affected normally by terrain costs (2 moves for rough terrain etc) but this still seems way too high to me.
As the player, you can slingshot yourself inland 4 squares by ending your previous turn in water. This is slightly hard to describe but makes exploring ridiculously easy and also allows for some crazy tactics in combat because you can retreat your units into the water on one turn and then be attacking with your entire army 5 tiles inland on the next turn.

 

[Ahriman]

It was a feature added in the latest patch.

Ah, ok thanks, I haven't played vanilla since the latest patch.
It's probably fine to leave as is then.

What happens is that when starting a turn embarked, your units get 5 movement, but when you disembark onto land, instead of getting your full normal movement allowance (e.g 2 moves for a warrior) you get the remainder of the 5 move you started the turn with. Is this intentional? I would have thought they should just have their full normal movement.
So if you disembark onto land on move 1, you get 4 more movement points.

Ah. That seems like a problem. If it was intended, it shouldn't be. I wonder if the problem is that embarked unit speeds can be much higher in the mod?

 

[Beelzibub]

Are there really large AI experience bonuses somewhere? A Danish composite bowman seemed to have indirect fire very early on (shooting over hills) and a Danish berserker seemed to have 3 movement points early on.

Indirect fire is only a tier two promotion (I think a while ago it was at least 3 or 4) for archers/bowmen so its really easy to get early, perhaps it should be pushed back up so that it is only available for more experienced units? Compared to the basic 15% strength increases, being able to shoot over hills/mountains is far more useful

 

[Hreat]

Indirect fire is a free promotion for the AI, to try to help them not be so stupid. Has been this way since... GEM?

 

[Ahriman]

Indirect fire is a free promotion for the AI, to try to help them not be so stupid.

Are you sure? I hadn't noticed that before, and I'm not sure that it is really a good idea. It reduces the player's ability to make meaningful positioning choices if the AI can shoot you no matter what happens.

Indirect fire is only a tier two promotion

I think this is probably the issue. Arguably it should be tier3. It's also odd seeing that I think march (? I think?) was a tier1 promotion for artillery.

 

[Ahriman]

"This update makes Great Person creation more challenging and rewarding"

Is there a design page somewhere which describes the actual changes that have been made? It is much easier to meaningfully playtest changes when we know what to look for.