3350 shields of cannons versus 3350 shields of infantry and tanks

[jeremiahrounds]

Ok so i discovered through play testing that a stack of cannons was a really good investment.

And i sought to set up a test to verify that. However because seed values being remembered this test is only ancedotal conversational and not statistical.

What i did was pit 8 infantry against 11 cannons. 8 infantry cost 1680 shields. 11 cannons cost 1650 shields. I gave the infantry a combat 1 promotion and the cannons a barrage 1 promotion.

I then pitted 6 tanks against 11 cannons. 6 tanks cost 1620 and 11 cannons cost 1650. The tank promotion was a difficult choice. Over half the time it seems people use a promotion that doesnt help in this situation so i gave them combat 1 too.

I let the cannons attack first. The result was:
1 infantry survived out of the 8 with a life of approximately 8. 9 attacking cannons survived out of the 11.
4 tanks survived with life:
0.6
2.5
8.7
11.2

5 cannons survived the battle with the tanks with the cannons pretty beat up.

If the combat had continued [and barring lost cities] im pretty sure the side with the tanks and infantry would have lost. The tank/infantry counter attack would be a coin toss with a probable victory of the tanks over the remaining cannons near them. And the infantry would have died to the 9 cannons who then would have cleaned out the remaining tanks. But still! This is why i build cannons cannons and cannons when they become available. Shield for shield with first attack they can win against much better units.

And the caveat of first attack isnt unusual with railroads. Typically this takes the form of the AI declaring war. Dropping a modern stack unto your turf and then a cannon/rail assisted counter attack begins.
(also cannon upgrade for pretty cheap to artillery)


So anyway 3350 shields worth of cannons can beat 3350 shields worth of infantry and tanks if they get first attack. Worth knowing.

In civ3 i tended to favor offensive units for defence because of that "Age well" thing. Cannons are that new age well unit.

attached is a save file right before the attacks if you want to push em into the tanks and infantry yourself~ =) I dont think the result will be different though because of the seed variable being remembered.

 

[iamdanthemansta]

Collateral damage is really really big. Cho-ku-no are probably the second best UU in the game because of this.

 

[Ranos]

4 tanks survived with life:
0.6
2.5
8.7
11.2

This is the one problem I have with the way siege unit damage is done. The unit that is actually being attacked by the siege unit suffers little or no damage. I have attacked with catapults and seen the message about collateral damage being done to 6 units. I watch the combat and the unit I'm attacking still has all three of its men but the units that suffered collateral damage have taken more damage and have only two men. I can continue to attack and it takes multiple attacks to damage that first unit.

 

[Thalassicus]

Use a few artillery with City Raider; while all the rest barrage the stack, one or two city raider artillery (or any other cheap unit with a withdraw chance) can damage the primary defender. If you build nothing but Barrage artillery, they'll have very low odds to damage the main defender. City raider artillery usually works best for this, since other withdraw units (like Cavalry) can't get that promotion. Later on a suicide tank works.

 

[MyOtherName]

But what if you mix your cannons with other units, like riflemen, or cavalry?

 

[Xerol]

The game's designed for combined arms to be the optimal strategy, but an all-artillery stack can be pretty powerful.

 

[Puzzlinon]

Good reminder. In the flow of the game, I'm always feeling like I'm building a fair balance of cats/etc... until push comes to shove (i.e. Monty or Isabella show up.) Then it's why oh why didn't I build a few more canons?

 

[eiseike]

Catapults and later cannons are also good for defending too , keep them in your city and when a huge stack of enemies appear on the same tile , attack them . Collateral damage is the best ( I dont like chu-ko-nu though because just using cataputs is better , plus they can do seige and reduce city defence while chu-ko-nu cant )

 

[Tall German Joe]

Collateral damage is really really big. Cho-ku-no are probably the second best UU in the game because of this.

Yeah, seriously. When I first started using the Chinese, I thought chos were pretty weak, but after I got a chance to use them for a few games I started desperately rushing to Machinery.

They are a really dominating unit, ridiculously overpowered, up there with Cossaks and Praetorians. A Chinese vs Roman matchup is really interesting, because the Roman knows if he tries and fails to break the Chinese with 100% Praetorians, he's going to get absolutely creamed in the counter-attack. That's the ridiculous thing about Chos; you don't even have to mix units, they counter absolutely everything, and they'll just blow apart every unit until knights. A huge stack of chos (with a few catapults for barrage) doesn't really even have to slow down. How many turns until the enemy capital is taken? How many turns does it take to get there?

 

[Tall German Joe]

Catapults and later cannons are also good for defending too , keep them in your city and when a huge stack of enemies appear on the same tile , attack them . Collateral damage is the best ( I dont like chu-ko-nu though because just using cataputs is better , plus they can do seige and reduce city defence while chu-ko-nu cant )

Well, the special thing about chos is that they also do +50% vs melee (swordsman, praetorians, axemen, macemen, and samurai), as well as have 2-3 first strikes. They don't lose battles very often. (almost never)

 

[Thalassicus]

Cho'ko'nu's are especially deadly if you have Ivory...get Machinery and Construction, and it's basically an "I Win" button until they get Longbows

Some combat odds of a Combat III Cho'ko'nu vs a fortified:
Garrison II Archer: 95%
Combat II Axeman: 95%
Combat II Swordsman: 86%
Combat II Praetorian: 48%
Garrison I Longbowman: 43%

Of course, this is all for just the first Cho'ko'nu

Add unit-counter promotions into the mix...

Don't mind me, Cho'ko'nu are weak. ...What, my little guys with crossbows? Oh, they're just former pillagers looking for a job

Cannons/artillery really do make great first-responders. After all, that's why the developers coded the AI to use them in that manner, collateral damage can make mincemeat of an assault force when backed up by mop-up units

 

[zafyro]

you just forget that chos apear far later than legionaries and by the time you have them other could have fortified archers or better assault weapons on his cities to warm up you aproaching huge stack of chos. [cat = power 5 cho = power 6 and there´s a diference in price] Then i can use my fortified long bow or horse archer to beat the doom crosbows

Not that powerfull, it´s just that AI doesn defend good against collateral damage or does not use it defensively

 

[Strobe]

Cannons and artillery really are excellent when used correctly. In the early games I thought they were overpowered even, on one noble game I simply built stacks of Artillery even against tanks and with the poor AI war abilities it was a walk over.

However if anyone tried rushing a stack of cannons at my infantry I would simply spread them out !

For tanks though I normally take the bombard(the one that gives collateral damage) option which makes them very versatile for taking cities as long as your opponent doesn't have tanks or is a lot lower in production than you.

 

[Thalassicus]

you just forget that chos apear far later than legionaries and by the time you have them other could have fortified archers or better assault weapons on his cities to warm up you aproaching huge stack of chos. [cat = power 5 cho = power 6 and there´s a diference in price] Then i can use my fortified long bow or horse archer to beat the doom crosbows

Not that powerfull, it´s just that AI doesn defend good against collateral damage or does not use it defensively

I'm referring to singleplayer games. Multiplayer games are a different ballgame entirely, more like an ancient-era wargame with Civ as a setting

The purpose of Cho'ko'nu is not to barrage the enemy like Catapults or Artillery, they're assault units that happen to deal collateral damage as well. They're like City Raider II + Barrage Tanks that can be used on the defensive and have first strikes.

In practice, I have never found horse archers to be a threat to Cho'Ko'Nu. Horse archers are easily defended against with spearmen in the stack, and/or moving on defensible terrain. They also don't recieve defensive bonuses, which makes them very weak defenders, especially when injured by collateral damage.

Catapults are nowhere near as powerful as Cho'ko'nu as assault units, which have +50% vs melee, 2 first strikes, 6 strength, and recieve defensive bonuses. Catapults' main purpose is barrage, after all, not assault

Even when Longbowmen show up, Cho'ko'nu are still highly effective with Macemen thrown in handle the Longbows. After the one or two defending longbowmen have been killed with the macemen, Cho'ko'nu easily mop up the other defenders in the city. Also, when they become obsolete they can be left behind as excellent defensive units.

I really havn't encountered any difficulties with Cho'ko'nu from the late ancient era up through the early medieval. By the time they're outdated (when Knights appear on the stage) I just leave them behind in the cities of the empire I've captured.

This is all on Monarch difficulty though. When you can't sustain an early tech lead over your opponents, on higher levels, they likely wouldn't be as useful on the offensive.

 

[eiseike]

By the way , I tried something yesterday. Try just doing a mass spearmen , catapult combo , maybe add a crossbow or axeman too. You can completely plough through the enemy cities , with the spearmen backing up the catapults (which should form the majority of your troops) to stop mounted units.

This is really effective ,dont worry about losing your cheap catapults , dont even worry if they're technologicaly more advanced > just outnumber them and use collateral damage to soften them up.

Later , just go for pikemen and cannons ........... by the way pikemen hold up too well against knights and usually win > also good to stop those pillaging #### from sacking your cottages , just pop out out the spearmen/pikemen and after killing the cav. run back into your city.

Spearmen/catapult combo can be both used offensively and defesively (but keep attacking their cities and they wont come into your borders anyway except for the odd raiding cav. archer.)

Try it ~ works like a charm.

 

[Cheeze]

Wouldn't axemen just tear up a stack of spearmen, with the melee bonus? (Not that I've tried this, just wondering what you'd do.)

 

[CivCorpse]

Cheeze wrote "Winter break starts on the 17th...and I have Civ4. Hmmmm... "

and he was never seen again

 

[Draetor24]

Stacks of cannon/artillery have weaknesses too, and it's units NOT in stacks. Surround them with units all over, and they can't do much collateral damage, and most other military units in the same age are always stronger.

 

[Arathorn]

Initiative is still very important in Civ4. Let those infantry/tank stacks attack first and the cannon stack is in big trouble. Tanks move 2, so let them attack, retreat, heal, and the cannons die.

But, yes, cannons are a good investment.

Arathorn

 

[Zurai]

Wouldn't axemen just tear up a stack of spearmen, with the melee bonus? (Not that I've tried this, just wondering what you'd do.)

Catapults would defend against axes with an even 50% chance to win. Both are strength 5.