3UC/4UC for VP: Project Coordination Thread

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I know right... Although... maybe we could drop the buff to Barracks besides the promotions and grant an additional line giving all german granarys a unique luxory called UBAR BIER.

Or we could give them an additional Uniqe Wonder instead of Slaganz

called *drumroll* OKTOBERFEST
Grants all granaries Unique luxory resource called KRAFT BIER.
 
Well you could give them a Nau/Diplomat type promotion, but I'm not sure what would need to be done for the AI to realise it could now use what it thought were military units as diplomats.
I like Hokath's idea the best. Druhtiz oath could be a unit action done next to a city state which gives 10 influence and deletes the unit. 2x the normal CS gift influence, basically a weak emissary action which doesn't require paper.

Our old idea of gifting the unit for extra influence wouldn't have worked that well anyways, since G changed gifting to only be possible if the CS has <5 units

Could give +1 CP to the unit as well as a bonus so the AI has something they can use, even if they don't 'get' Druhtiz

If we did that, I think it should only be on captured military units and not on the base slaganz, so you can only burn barbs for influence instead of churning out the warriors

Those CS quests where they go under siege for 15 turns would be an even more hilarious farm for influence

Also, keep in mind unit conversion starting HP is now down to 25, so this proposal's base mechanics have been nerfed
The CP bonus to the city is too high : all the UBs giving bonus CP to cities give 5 CP at a maximum
If we can't think of another bonus to give barbican, I think the defense should be up to 10. The greek acropolis gives 10CP
I suggest maybe adding [bonus to jungle] to the [Grunwald] promotion, even if it is historically inaccurate.
I think this would be good. Jungle is just a fancy word for forest, really. The line between jungle and forest is arbitrary, hence 'rainforest'. The fact that Pancerny were never historically in jungle is incidental to Poland's geography, and more a product of Europeans exoticizing other people's natural ecosystems to the point where, today, we no longer acknowledge the very real commonalities of people's woodlands. A semiotic artifact which emphasizes dissimilarity where none really exists.
 
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Don't you know it only rains in rainforests not forests... No but seriously there is actual major differences. Seattle (temperate rainforest) jungle = an area of land overgrown with dense forest and tangled vegetation, typically in the tropics. You can't really call the black forest a jungle because it is more or less traversable by foot without hacking and slashing...

why not a better idea for slaganz when positioned in a city states terrirtory increases influence by 1 per turn and doesn't intrude... plus passes on upgrade... Helps Germany MASSIVELY... is pretty decent and encourages units to stick their noses up other city states bungholes.

Why not give Barbican something clever and unique like... +10 culture upon adoption of a social policy...? that could be pretty unique and cool... and fitting...
 
I hate to dig this back up, but I'm still really uncomfortable with moving the Pracinha to Rifleman with the bonuses they have been given.

That +XX :tourism: tourism is driving me crazy, because moving the unit forward feels completely at odds with the pace of the game. I don't have a problem with the bonus itself, just its timing.

You want players to be ending their games in atomic at the earliest, unless they have played absurdly well or are playing at far too easy a difficulty, correct? Domination and cultural are the only 2 victory conditions which are even possible before the information era, correct?

So this unit provides a yield on kill which has almost no in-game impact except as victory points. All that :tourism: does is increase :c5unhappy: slightly in other empires without your ideology, a little extra TR yields, and fewer turns of conquest resistance. Outside of winning the game, :tourism: has a negligible impact on turn-to-turn gameplay which is so under the hood as to be ignorable.

So, given those point, Atomic is a desirable place to put a 'game ender', if it is going to take the form of a UU.

In some aspect, giving :tourism: on kills to any unit wouldn't matter except for the amount of :tourism: given. What they are doing is decreasing the total number of turns in the game, and that can be in renaissance or it could be in atomic, as long as it happens after a significant number of culture has been stockpiled (no pre-medieval), and doesn't happen in the information era, where it's too late to matter.

On the other hand, giving a game-closer unit, whose main ability is to end the game, in an era in which you don't intend the game to actually end sounds pretty awful. Why in God's name would anyone continue playing the game after the time-sensitive :tourism: unit is past its power spike? Cultural victories are often accused of just 'marking time', but it would be absurd to still be marking time after your tourism spike had already ended. You want the game to end during the spike, so that it feels like that unit really won you the game. If the unit technically did win you the game, and you have to play another 40 turns before the AI acknowledges that, then you should just quit the game. What keeps a Brazil player actually playing past that point?

By way of analogy, imagine if you had coded a unit which gives votes for the world leader vote (and cannot be put towards any other WC proposals), and placed it in the Industrial era. You make your kills, and now instead of waiting for space parts you are waiting for world leader to unlock. You've already won, you just are waiting for combined arms and the United Nations construction. Just marking time, hitting next turn over and over until the AI realizes 2 eras later that you won 80 turns ago.

The AI might hate you because it sees you're far along in some points scores, but the AI will never be able to fully grasp that they have 40 turns to kill every man, woman and child in your empire, or else you've already won. If such a thing happened in-game, ideally the AI would go completely berserk on you and attempt a genocide with everything they have at their disposal, but the AI isn't capable of understanding the situation.

Making the Pracinha an anachronism is just icing.
 
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I posted on Github buglist of current VP. To your knowledge:
Spoiler Buglist on Github updated :

  • double Siege Inacuracy promotion on Field Gun,
  • double Extra Sight promotion on austrian Hussar,
  • 4 buildings had ConquestProb > 0 even if they have NeverCapture = 1,
  • 9 buildings had NeverCapture = 0 even if they have ConquestProb = 0,
  • 3 missing texts:
    • TXT_KEY_AIR_STRENGTH_DEFENSE,
    • TXT_KEY_EUI_BUILDING_SUPPLY_CAP_LOCAL,
    • TXT_KEY_EUI_BUILDING_SUPPLY_CAP_GLOBAL,
  • database.log missing landmark values.

  • Venice Custom House, Eki and Encampment have 15 :c5production: for removed jungle instead of 20 and 20 :c5production: for forest instead of 30
  • Embassy has value 0 :c5production: for everything
  • Polder has remove forest time 3 turns instead of 4
  • Encampment and Eki has remove jungle 7 turns instead of 5 like all
  • Encampment and Eki has remove forest 4 turns instead of 6 like all
I added or modified few things in my main post (look also at new promotion names).
 
@pineappledan, why not simply remove this ability to generate tourism from kills from the unit ? Brazil can already generate more tourism than any other civilization in the late-game, and I like this idea less and less (sometimes, something that seemed acceptable actually isn't). What is needed by Brazil at this stage of the game is more of a way to protect itself or use its superior tourism in conjonction with its UM to have more profitable conquests (knowing that UM at this stage of the game are used in a way more complex type of battlefield).

So, if we want to change the unit completely, there are some ways to do it :
- We could simply make the unit an early Infantry (so tier 2 Modern era tech), with some special bonus
- We could make the unit a Recon unit/Paratrooper unit (one of my early ideas) : this wouldn't be the first time we would have several UM on the same line for a civ, and this could prove to be a really interesting unit (knowing that a Recon unit isn't really the type to conquer cities, but can still wreck havoc and be of much use, while also being the type of unit thriving in rough terrains, numerous in Brazilian territory).
- We could keep the unit as a Rifleman replacement, and simply remove the tourism bonus in exchange of some mobility promotion (ex. : "Ignore terrain cost", or "Woodman")
 
Why not be clever guys for Brazil. Replace great artist with great waxer.

No but seriously a sambo musician could be cool creates great salsa works... Unique great works of music with dastardly awesome effects...
 
@Infixo How about stuff I wrote on page 84? Is it possible to make it?
 
adding for now one category to promotion tab - "Diplomatic"
changing "attributes" category name to "Others"
Once I asked Gazebo about adding quick button for investement on building that are in queue (now you you need to unqueue, invest and queue again), but he said he was not touching EUI. And you?
Civilopedia is easy. I actually had the same idea about creating a new category of diplo promotions, but after checking that there are only a few (5?), I deemed it not worth it. Maybe if we considered also splitting that big bag "Attributes/Others" into 2 or 3 meaningful categories, then the whole work would make more sense. I even made changes to Lua that would allow adding a new category very quickly. More work is with changing the Pedia attribute in promotions as they are spread out over many files.
Names are usually in localization strings, so it is also easy.
PQ - well, I'd say it's doable, but I am not sure about the final result. PQ is little more complicated due to Processess and Projects that can be put there. More conditons to check.
 
Why not be clever guys for Brazil. Replace great artist with great waxer.

No but seriously a sambo musician could be cool creates great salsa works... Unique great works of music with dastardly awesome effects...

ILY
 
@Infixo
  • I've already started sorting promotions over categories and "fixing" them - look into my part - TextChanges.sql and PromotionIcons.sql or just load whole modpack to see amazing effect. Attributes category is almost empty.
  • For now I modified descriptions of almost 210 promotions
  • In addition I change names, split some descriptions and names, copy names to pedia entries and change or add icons.
  • All my work is consistent with all promotions added in More Unique Components mod
  • To "others" I planned put all civilian promotions (GG, GA, worker etc.). We can call it "civilian" as well
  • About diplomatic: remember that there are few promotions from buildings like Wire Service or Literacy. I think there are at least 10 of them.
  • I thought also about making "Siege" category" for some specific Siege promotion divided from Ranged category.
  • Same way there are some "Mounted" or "Armor" specific promotions in melee category.
  • I put all that stuff into this modpack for testing purpose. I will eventually probably separate it at some point and make different mod. If you plan to add all of this to VP we can cooperate then. That was my intention since the beginning.
  • For production queue modification look into modpack link in my post description or ask @NikMuazHakim about ImprovedCityView for EUI. He managed to make it compatible with VP but as a part of modpack. You could just move it to VP. I know it worked well because I played this modpack for some time.
  • Do you have some thread for such discussion? We could continue conversation there to not to bother my fellowmen with things not connected strictly with modmod.
 
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I'm not super confident in the Pracinha, or late-game design in general, but right now I would prefer to keep it as is until we get more playtest feedback, as opposed to theorycrafting. We've only gotten one playtest review of Brazil with 4UC so far, and that game ended before the Pracinha could come into play, which confirms my suspicion that an atomic era UU is simply too late.

In my admittedly limited late-game experience, I find that domination and cultural victories occur most often in the early atomic era. Diplomatic victory isn't unlocked until information, but you usually have the required votes by atomic as well. If a UU is placed in the atomic era, it will frequently get only a few turns of effectiveness at most. And there's also the factor that later eras go by much more quickly in terms of number of turns. If a unit is unlocked in early modern, it will often take until late modern for it to be deployed and used effectively, which is frequently the window right before the game ends. So with all that considered, I think modern era is just right for an endgame unit.

My goal for the pracinha isn't for it to be an unstoppable tourism force, such that a successful pracinha invasion is a guaranteed cultural victory. I want it to be a strong source of tourism to supplement but not overwhelm your other sources. Maybe it's too strong as it is, and I need to dial the tourism back, but I would like to see it tested before deciding that.
 
I think modern era is just right for an endgame unit.
This is why I suggested moving infantry forward 1 tech. I would recommend radio, since it is closer to the top of the tree, which Brazil will be rushing, unlocks with other CV techs. It's also a nod that the Brazilians joining the allies was more of a propaganda victory than any stunning victory on Brazil's part. Like the US joining the allies in WWI, they were an enormous supply of fresh troops throwing their weight behind Germany's enemies, a demoralizing state of affairs for the axis.

Radio is likely the first 2nd tier tech researche dby brazil in modern. By the time you have pracinha up and are on a wartime footing it could already be atomic, but it will just be the start of the atomic.
My goal for the pracinha isn't for it to be an unstoppable tourism force, such that a successful pracinha invasion is a guaranteed cultural victory. I want it to be a strong source of tourism to supplement but not overwhelm your other sources.
I think maybe I should clarify. I don't think that the unit has to win the game, but as a unit which directly contributes to a win condition, it would be more satisfying to have the unit be active during the win. If Pracinha perform their job they might be able to push a CV for Brazil 10-20 turns earlier. If they are obsolete at that time then it will be less clear to the player the impact those units had, and the unit will feel hollow, since its impact wasn't felt until the unit was upgraded to infantry
 
Regarding the barbican, how about this?
Spoiler :
UB - Barbican (replaces Armory):
  • requires Walls (instead of barracks)
  • +2 :c5culture: Culture, +2 :c5faith: Faith, +2 :c5science: Science
  • +10 :c5strength: CS
  • +25 XP for all newly trained units (up from 20)
  • units garrisoned in the city gain "Embrasure" (units garrisoned in city can attack twice)
  • +2 :c5war: Military Supply Cap (up from 1)
  • -30% :c5unhappy: Crime (up from -20%)
10 CS is consistent with the Greek Acropolis.
Embrasure would feel more impactful than a straight CS boost. I don't think we could do the -XX% RCP penalty of normal promotions though, because if the unit already had logistics then they would get both RCP penalties without being able to do more attacks.
all the other modest boosts can stay as is

Also, should the white tower increase the % chance of catching enemy spies, rather than reduce spy effectiveness on empire? As it is currently, one part of the building rewards you for an event occuring, while another makes that event take longer to occur. It's a bit of counter-synergy, and while I think it's probably okay, it's worth seeing if there is an easy way for the white tower to enhance your % chance to kill spies, like the double agents order tenet.
 
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Spoiler : UB - Barbican (replaces Armory):
  • requires Walls (instead of barracks)
  • +2 :c5culture: Culture, +2 :c5faith: Faith, +2 :c5science: Science
  • +10 :c5strength: CS
  • +25 XP for all newly trained units (up from 20)
  • units garrisoned in the city gain "Embrasure" (units garrisoned in city can attack twice)
  • +2 :c5war: Military Supply Cap (up from 1)
  • -30% :c5unhappy: Crime (up from -20%)

I like this idea, but think that only ranged units should be able to attack twice.

Also, should the white tower increase the % chance of catching enemy spies, rather than reduce spy effectiveness on empire? As it is currently, one part of the building rewards you for an event occuring, while another makes that event take longer to occur. It's a bit of counter-synergy, and while I think it's probably okay, it's worth seeing if there is an easy way for the white tower to enhance your % chance to kill spies, like the double agents order tenet.

Also a very good (and logical) idea.

For the Pracinha, I think the unit should become, as pineappledan said, an Infantry replacement unlocked at Radio, with no additionnal CP compared to the Infantry unit but the unique attributes we've talked about earlier (a sort of modern version of the Berserker).
Unfortunately, I think the current version of the unit is totally unbalanced (so I can't do a playtest with Brazil for now), but, whenever it becomes possible, I'll see how the unit influences the game through one or several full games with Brazil.
 
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  • Isn't double attack just different version of buffing same type of units? And what if we have logistics on our units and then we will add new next double attack. How much attack will it have: 2, 3, 4? I don't see the point of changing that.
  • Do we have function for increasing capture of spies (now I changed 1 number in sql to lower their effeciveness)? And for me lower spy effectiveness is just the effect you are talking about. It is worse, needs more time to perform spy mission, and there's more time to catch him, right?
 
Do we have function for increasing capture of spies (now I changed 1 number in sql to lower their effeciveness)? And for me lower spy effectiveness is just the effect you are talking about. It is worse, needs more time to perform spy mission, and there's more time to catch him, right?

The chance a spy is killed in action only occurs when the spy tries to steal a technology, so at the end of a "gather informations" cycle. For the other actions of the spy, I think they cannot provoke the death of the spy.
As a consequence, augmenting the time necessary for a spy to try stealing a technology would reduce the utility of the "+1 happiness per spy killed" bonus from the White Tower, hence the idea of replacing this "slowing" effect by a "increases chance of enemy spy failure" bonus, which would be even more effective in theory.

Isn't double attack just different version of buffing same type of units? And what if we have logistics on our units and then we will add new next double attack. How much attack will it have: 2, 3, 4? I don't see the point of changing that.

The effects which allow units to attack a second times often say "the second attack consumes all remaining MP", so, de facto, a unit with "Logistics", +1 MP and on a city with a Barbican could only attack twice I think.
 
  • I can do this:
    • if unit does not have logistics - give logistics
    • if unite have logistics - give RCS like current Barbican but lower (10%).
  • I have no idea for now how to make capturing enemy spies more frequent. I can nullyfy current value of spy rate but it would be also not so good.
 
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