.

[headcase]

Maybe give Keshiks the normal city penalty, but change the Mongol UA to give a (smaller) bonus against all cities, not just CS.

 

[KrikkitTwo]

To be honest I haven't lost one to a Pikeman in ages since I started pushing to get them earlier int he game and I tend to take the Mongols out or deny them horses if they're playing against me so apologies for the error, I presumed they'd be subject to the same mechanic.

However, in that case they need reclassifying to be attackable as mounted units. Problem solved.



That would just change the strategy, you'd just bring more of them to do the same job.

If you are bringing more of them, then that slows down the rush, and gives the other player(s) more time to tech to decent counters.

 

[Ermak-]

the problem with keshiks is they come too late for a diety game. By the time you get cavalery- DIETY AIs have rifles and cavalery.

 

[Rpger29]

Decently experienced Keshiks eat cavalry and rifles unless circumstances are heavily weighted against you. You'd never get 6 infantry and 3 tanks within attack distance of 8 keshiks before they turned the odds to 4 vs 8. You really need air power to remove a strong Keshik army.

I think they're fine the way they are, except that if they aren't classified as "mounted" when being attacked by pikes, that should change. I also think they should have a weakness to tanks to encourage players to stop using them once armor enters the game.

 

[Noatz]

the problem with keshiks is they come too late for a diety game. By the time you get cavalery- DIETY AIs have rifles and cavalery.

Not if you beeline properly; your first target will probably be rolling with pikes, perhaps crossbows and some even worse units. Pikes are annoying for the mounted rush... but not Keshiks. Keshiks rofl at pikes.

 

[peddroelm]

Keshik flaw?

They aren't able to use mini nuclear warheads as ammunition for their bows (Rambo style) YET. But I've heard they plan to fix in by the next patch ...

 

[Jim Bro]

mongolia is a very good civ but there are better civs out there so i think their advantage is fine as it is.

 

[Melchizedek]

Keshiks are incredible, but remember Mongolia has little else going for it. Other UUs are a little weaker because the civ's UA is strong.

 

[Becomedeath]

I don't get it.

Keshiks are awesome, why the hate?

If you don't like them, don't play them. The AI can't use them properly so it's not like you're under threat anyway and if it MP that you're worried about then relish the challenge.

Utterly confused, if it was easy, it would be no fun.

 

[Becomedeath]

See the fault in your thinking?

Not particularly. Balance is overrated, it's generally a whine becuase something is too hard and whilst the whiner is willing to reap the benefits whilst playing with the advantage, they get disgruntled when that benefit is turned against them.

I favor games where my opponent has a clear advantage, it makes me think which is the entire reason for playing a strategy game.

Give the Greeks a stupidly powerful early game unit, all it means is I have to be prepared to fight it.

There is a massive, although largely ignored, difference between being unbalanced and being undefeatable.

Balance, is boring. Imagine a Jackie Chan movie where every fight he's joined by a dozen other guys and they each fight one on one, balanced, but boring.

And quite frankly, it is as easy as "don't like it don't play it", I've won as the Mongols without any fricken horses and I've defeated them when they're Keshiked up to the hilt, so it's not as if Keshiks are a game maker, or breaker. They're simply a nice advantage to have.

 

[That nerdy kid]

you want to nerf the most historically accurate UU in the game? well then. consider this: The mongols had armies made up of two unit types: Trebuchets and Keshiks. The thing that balances Keshiks in this game is that they can't capture cities. you must have a pikeman, horseman, or other unit to capture the city. A city surrounded by only keshiks will never fall.

 

[eris]

Exactly, playing with them is too easy, so it is no fun.

See the fault in your thinking?

That is only true for you. It is not true for others. See the fault in your thinking?

It would seem you are calling for the game to be redesigned for your personal enjoyment rather than that of the majority. So far, the reaction does not seem to be unanimous enough to warrant anything other than a personal mod to your individual game.

 

[dexters]

Keshiks have the same problem in human hands as Tanks / Amour used to have in previous games.

Any unit with high movement points that can retreat after attack can become an invincible force. Armour still have this advantage but their city attack penalty has blunted their usefulness. Besides, a completely ranged unit will always beat tanks, given they never have to take damage.

I'm not sure what you can do to stop this aside from
1) reducing keshik movement
2) increasing movement of their counters (knights)

I think #1 won't be palatable. Doing #2 may not really solve the issue under AI control.

So the alternatives are
3) Add penalty to Keshik attacks v cities
4) Give Pikes a bonus against Keshik / alternatively add attack penalty vs. all gunpowder units and forward (so no more rifles v. keshik)
5) Reduce Keshik range.

 

[KrikkitTwo]

Keshiks have the same problem in human hands as Tanks / Amour used to have in previous games.

Any unit with high movement points that can retreat after attack can become an invincible force. Armour still have this advantage but their city attack penalty has blunted their usefulness. Besides, a completely ranged unit will always beat tanks, given they never have to take damage.

I'm not sure what you can do to stop this aside from
1) reducing keshik movement
2) increasing movement of their counters (knights)

I think #1 won't be palatable. Doing #2 may not really solve the issue under AI control.

So the alternatives are
3) Add penalty to Keshik attacks v cities
4) Give Pikes a bonus against Keshik / alternatively add attack penalty vs. all gunpowder units and forward (so no more rifles v. keshik)
5) Reduce Keshik range.

I like #5... a unit with '1' Range would be interesting.

 

[Lay_Lay]

The ability to move after shooting arrows is extremely overpowered in the hands of the human player. Much more overpowered than any other unique ability or unique unit - by a longshot.
Reducing range is an enticing solution.

 

[Yzman]

The solution is simple, just make them have the same penalty that other units like them have. Give them a penalty against cities. There is no reason for the unit that they replace getting the penalty, the type they change to getting the penalty, yet they don't.

Especially since I don't remember that being in their description, I think it is an oversight.