[Vote] (5-23) Tribute Changes (Part 2: Gold Adjustments, New "Quest Yields" Tribute)

[Stalker0]

VP Congress: Session 5, Proposal 23

This is part 2 of a two part series. The two proposals can be implemented independently, but both function around the same concept.

Part 1 can be found here: https://forums.civfanatics.com/thre...-pt-1-adjustment-of-tribute-modifiers.684426/


Proposal

• Base Gold from Standard Tribute is increased by 200% and now scales with era.
• Heavy Tribute has been completely reworked, see below.
• Tribute (authority policy) now converts 25% of tribute gold to culture.
  • This is a reversion to the old version of tribute.
• Mongolia UA: +100% to the tribute gold demanded from CS.
  • Note that this also doubles the culture gained from the Tribute policy.

Heavy Tribute System

• Requires a Bully Score of 80+% to activate heavy tribute.
  • SPECIAL ADJUSTMENT: If part 1 of this series is passed, the threshold will instead be 100%.
• Receive Regular Tribute gold
• Gain 50% of the non-influence yields from the CS current quest list.
  • After receiving the yields, those quests are considered "accomplished".
• Your influence with the CS is reduced back down to your resting influence or -60 influence, whichever is a greater drop.

Clarifications

• "Tribute gold" does not count gold from quest yields.
• As the numbers are integers, in the event there are decimals after the halving of quest yields, the decimals are dropped.
• For global quests, you recieve the benefit and the quest is completed for you, but the quest remains open for other players.
• Conquer CS/Ally both CS quest: You get the "full reward" benefit, and the quest is completed for both CS.
• Diplomatic Missions more effective: As this quest gives no bonus innately, you get nothing for tribute. It is a global quest, so it remains open for other players.
• Barbarian Horde: Quest operates on a per barb kill not an innate bonus, so you get nothing for tribute. It is a global quest, so it remains open for other players and barbarians will continue to spawn.
• List of Global Quests
  • Kill CS X
  • Kill Barbarian Camp
  • Most culture in 30 turns
  • Most tourism in 30 turns
  • Most converted followers in 30 turns
  • Most techs in 30 turns
  • Diplomatic Missions 50% higher
  • Get archeology spot
  • Circumnavigate the globe
  • Barbarian Horde
  • CS is performing a rebellion against current ally.

Example: Imagine you had the following quests for a CS, and decided to perform Heavy Tribute

• First Quest: You get the "full reward" bonus. You recieve no influence, 131 gold, and 131 GAP. This would be marked complete for both CS.
• Second Quest: You receive no influence, and 45.5 culture (rounded down to 45 because its an integer). The quest is marked as "complete"
• Third Quest: You receive no influence, and 62.5 production in the capital (rounded down to 62 because its an integer) The quest is marked as "complete".

Rationale
Tributing a CS actually carries a number of penalties.

• You lose access to CS quests
• You lose access to friend/ally benefits
• You take severe diplomatic penalties with many Civs (those with pledges will often HATE you for the act).
• Other CS will give you penalties if you tribute heavily.

Compared to these penalties, the yields you get from tribute are quite pathetic. But further, it forces you to go against the grain, you have all of these cool quests, but you can't enjoy them when you tribute. This version allows the two systems to work together. Now you can enjoy the benefits of quests in an alternate way. You can either accomplish quests, or you can use your army to "accomplish" them. This gives the system natural scaling. Because quests scale over time, heavy tribute now naturally scales as well.

Further, this creates a fun dynamic to the tribute system. You may look at a CS quest and decide to hold off on tribute, meanwhile you see a juicy CS pop up with a number of big quests that you decide is worth sending your army long distance to go grab. You now get to enjoy the dynamic fun of the quest system....while utilizing your own cutthroat take on it!

Meanwhile for regular tributing, we have doubled the gold and added era scaling, again to keep these values competitive with the high cost of a tribute.

Last note on the Special Adjustment noted above: The current tribute penalties make a 100% bully score nigh impossible, and so it was decided to use 80%. However, if part 1 of this proposal is passed, 80% will become "too easy" in comparison, and so we have noted a special adjustment back to 100%.

 

[Recursive]

• Second Quest: You receive no influence, and 45.5 culture. The quest is marked as "complete"
• Third Quest: You receive no influence, and 62.5 production in the capital.. The quest is marked as "complete".

Preferable to remove the decimal for accuracy in yield popups/notifications. Usually the DLL rounds down when dealing with integers, although to round up you can add 1 before dividing by 2.

 

[azum4roll]

All instant yields have to be integers.

 

[pineappledan]

Several questions:
Do abilities that give +% to quest rewards interact with Heavy Tribute? (I think they should, you 'completed' the quests after all)
If yes, is the halving of tribute quest rewards via heavy tribute before modifiers, or is it a modifier?
for example, If I had +50% to quest rewards, and I heavy tributed a CS, would I get 100% of the original quest reward (100% - 50% + 50%), or would I get only 75% ((1 * 50%) * 50%)?

Authority's Tribute policy increases the quest yields you receive by 25% (or 50% if you have all tribute policies).

Does the tribute policy still work as it does now on normal Tribute?
This seems like an extra complication, in that you now have a 3rd ability type that augments quest rewards, but only when they are liquidated via tribute.
This tribute change seems not only unnecessary, but also undermines your supposed aim of merging quest rewards with tribute. You’re constructing an entire third category of heavy tribute yields, which is even more complex than the current system.

How does this change interact with Mongolia? Do you plan to also propose a change for Mongol's tribute bonus?

 

[azum4roll]

Current gold amount at 100% bully score = 50 + 400 * game progress%, so it already scales.

 

[Stalker0]

Current gold amount at 100% bully score = 50 + 400 * game progress%, so it already scales.

What is game progress %? Is that a smoother era scaling curve?

 

[Stalker0]

Several questions:
Do abilities that give +% to quest rewards interact with Heavy Tribute? (I think they should, you 'completed' the quests after all)

Yes. The way I envision it is, when I look at the quest UI and it shows me the yields (which should already be impacted by any quest % modifiers), I should get 50% of that number.

If yes, is the halving of tribute quest rewards via heavy tribute before modifiers, or is it a modifier?
for example, If I had +50% to quest rewards, and I heavy tributed a CS, would I get 100% of the original quest reward (100% - 50% + 50%), or would I get only 75% ((1 * 50%) * 50%)?

I will use an example for clarity.

You have a Trade Route quest that would grant you 100 food in the capital at base. You have a +50% quest modifier, so the number showed me in the UI is 150 food.

I will get 50% of 150.... or 75. So it is the "75%" value in your example.

Does the tribute policy still work as it does now on normal Tribute?

According to the current tooltip, the tribute policy only works on Heavy Tribute. Is this is in error?

How does this change interact with Mongolia? Do you plan to also propose a change for Mongol's tribute bonus?

For mongolia the idea is that instead of 50% of the total quest yields, they would receive 100% of the total. Aka they would "double" the benefit they get now (so the core civ is unchanged).

Your right I may need to at least note that in the proposal. Code wise, would mongolia actually need to be changed, or would the way its coded already do it that way?

I was not planning to do any formal changes to mongolia myself this congress.

 

[pineappledan]

According to the current tooltip, the tribute policy only works on Heavy Tribute. Is this is in error?

Unsure what it currently does. It changes a lot.

IMO it should just go back to augmenting the gold tribute, which you propose should be given for both regular and heavy tribute. It used to give 25 to 50% of your tribute yield as Culture. If it doesn’t do that still, it ought to. I see no reason why it should interact with the quest rewards at all.

Quest rewards should be modified by quest reward modifiers and the tribute gold should be modified by tribute modifiers. Blending the two into 1 bonus seems obtuse, like you’re going out of your way to try to make this harder to understand.

For mongolia the idea is that instead of 50% of the total quest yields, they would receive 100% of the total. Aka they would "double" the benefit they get now (so the core civ is unchanged).

Your right I may need to at least note that in the proposal. Code wise, would mongolia actually need to be changed, or would the way its coded already do it that way?

I was not planning to do any formal changes to mongolia myself this congress.

That makes Mongolia’s bonus a strictly worse version of Austria’s existing % bonus to quest rewards. Austria’s bonus affects both completed and tributes quests while Mongolia’s only affect the latter. I think you should reconsider this.

Once again, this feels like you don’t believe in your own premise. You say you want heavy tribute to be merged with quests, but with policy and trait bonuses that straddle and blur tribute with quests, or affect one but not the other, thus keeping the category merger partial and inconsistent

 

[Stalker0]

That makes Mongolia’s bonus a strictly worse version of Austria’s existing % bonus to quest rewards. Austria’s bonus affects both completed and tributes quests while Mongolia’s only affect the latter. I think you should reconsider this.

Mongolia would also receive double the gold as well, but yeah its fair (especially if we pass the austria changes we had discussed)

 

[axatin]

It is necessary to distinguish between global and player-specific quests? That makes it more difficult for the players to determine what they'll get from bullying. Technically it should be possible to cancel a global quest for one specific player only (that's already what's done when war is declared).

If the distinction is kept, it should be shown somewhere in the UI which quests are global and which ones aren't.

 

[pineappledan]

Here is what I propose:

Tribute policy: 25% of gold from Tributes is also given as Culture. Doubled to 50% with the Authority Finisher
- This is a reversion back to an older version of this ability.

Mongols: 20% of gold from Tributes is also given as All Yields in the Capital c5food:)
- With your change to how heavy tribute works, Mongols will lose access to the different yield types he can get from threatening different CS types
- If he tries to get those by augmenting heavy tribute quests he will overlap with Austria.
- So instead, we can change him to use a version of the tribute policy bonus, which converts a % of the bonus yields into other yields.
- His current version gives +100% of the yields. 20% of 6 yield types is roughly like +120%

 

[Stalker0]

It is necessary to distinguish between global and player-specific quests? That makes it more difficult for the players to determine what they'll get from bullying. Technically it should be possible to cancel a global quest for one specific player only (that's already what's done when war is declared).

If the distinction is kept, it should be shown somewhere in the UI which quests are global and which ones aren't.

I mean whether its "cancelled" with no bonus or maintained, ultimately there is still a difference between the two quests.

Correct me, but I don't think we could have them "complete" the quest but then keep it open for other players could we?

 

[axatin]

Correct me, but I don't think we could have them "complete" the quest but then keep it open for other players could we?

It would be possible. Would require some new code, but that would be needed anyway for this proposal.

 

[Stalker0]

It would be possible. Would require some new code, but that would be needed anyway for this proposal.

Ok, if that is possible I think that would be a lot cleaner. I will update the proposal after a little more feedback

 

[Stalker0]

Proposal Updates: 7/5/2023 11:00 EST

• Global Quest handling changed. These quests will now complete for you but remain open for other users.
• Tribute policy changed: Now provides 25% of tribute gold as culture.
• Mongol UA update: Now provides a boost to the base tribute gold, which means this is multiplied by the Tribute policy.
• Provided clarifications on a few quests.

 

[azum4roll]

It is necessary to distinguish between global and player-specific quests? That makes it more difficult for the players to determine what they'll get from bullying. Technically it should be possible to cancel a global quest for one specific player only (that's already what's done when war is declared).

If the distinction is kept, it should be shown somewhere in the UI which quests are global and which ones aren't.

There can only be one personal quest active at a time, so you always only get to cancel one. Global quests aren't cancelled by current tribute.

Meanwhile global quests include some that give no yields and one that gives two different tiers of rewards.

 

[axatin]

I sponsor this.

A small adjustment is necessary: Just like the "defeat barbarian horde" quest, the quest "CS is performing a rebellion against current ally" can't be canceled, so it should also be one of the quests that don't give yields when taking tribute.

 

[DoveCDog]

Would heavy tribute no longer give you extra yeilds of the city state type? Like would a religious city state no longer provide faith? If so, then that would tie tribute with city state quests, which makes it too "gamey" IMO. You would only want to tribute city states when they are offering you many quests.

 

[Stalker0]

Would heavy tribute no longer give you extra yeilds of the city state type? Like would a religious city state no longer provide faith? If so, then that would tie tribute with city state quests, which makes it too "gamey" IMO. You would only want to tribute city states when they are offering you many quests.

Regular Tribute would give gold, Heavy Tribute would give that same gold + the quest benefits. So there would not be an innate "faith yield" from a religious CS, however religious CS tend to provide more "faith type quests" in general.

In terms of "gaming", well I mean one person's gaming is another person's optimization. If you want to wait to tribute until a CS has built up a number of good quests that is a perfectly great way to go about it, or maybe you have your army near a CS, need to send that army somewhere else, and would rather just grab the yields now even if its not as optimal. That's all a part of the strategy that civ is built around.

 

[azum4roll]

Would heavy tribute no longer give you extra yeilds of the city state type? Like would a religious city state no longer provide faith? If so, then that would tie tribute with city state quests, which makes it too "gamey" IMO. You would only want to tribute city states when they are offering you many quests.

Which is why the original proposal was liquidating personal quests only, which have a maximum of 1 for any given CS (and has a CS-based cooldown too, so you can never get too much from it). I missed it when they changed it to include global quests too, or I would've expressed my disagreement here earlier.