[Vote] (5-26) Nerf God of Stars and Sky

[axatin]

VP Congress: Session 5, Proposal 26

Current "God of Stars and Sky" Pantheon:
+1 Faith, Food and Culture from Tundra/Snow tiles with resources.

Proposal: Change it to
+1 Faith from Tundra/Snow tiles with resources, +1 Food, +1 Culture for every two worked Tundra/Snow tiles

Rationale:
This pantheon is currently too strong, in particular because of the large amount of culture that it can provide quickly. Its value also depends very much on the map script and the resource density. These issues are addressed by making some of the yields terrain-based and not resource-based.


Proposal amended:

Spoiler :

A previous version of this proposal used
+1 Food and +1 Faith per worked Tundra/Snow tile, +1 Culture for every two worked Tundra/Snow tiles,
this was seen as too strong

 

[DImensiondog]

This looks like a buff to me, since you probably don't quite have resources every second tile so culture improves as well as faith and food vastly increasing.

 

[axatin]

This looks like a buff to me, since you probably don't quite have resources every second tile so culture improves as well as faith and food vastly increasing.

That really depends on the map...

The thing is, tundra tiles without resources are really bad. Unless they have a forest, they give nothing else but 1 Food, and on tiles that are not next to a river it's not even possible to build a farm. So, if someone starts in a tundra region without many resources, it's a really bad start, and the pantheon could make up for this to some extent. And for tundra starts with a lot of resources the pantheon is currently too strong and this change will be a nerf.

 

[Stalker0]

That really depends on the map...
View attachment 666378


The thing is, tundra tiles without resources are really bad. Unless they have a forest, they give nothing else but 1 Food, and on tiles that are not next to a river it's not even possible to build a farm. So, if someone starts in a tundra region without many resources, it's a really bad start, and the pantheon could make up for this to some extent. And for tundra starts with a lot of resources the pantheon is currently too strong and this change will be a nerf.

Yeah you beat me to it.

Ultimately I do think its more nerf than buff. Most klondike cities i make have a lot of resources (or else why bother). So early in the cities growth I will get the same food and faith I do now, but with a significant culture drop. That actually has two impacts, the initial culture loss, but also my borders will grow a lot slower in the rough tundra territory, and so I will have access to less tiles.

Now it is possible this will allow me to settle in a "garbage" tundra area as a faith generator, which to me is a fine tradeoff. If I build a tundra city with few resources its not going to be a productive city, so if I'm willing to do that to make a faith generator as a city...I think that's fair play.

 

[pineappledan]

So you want to give +1 to all snow and tundra tiles, even if they don't have resources on them? Won't this make tundra forests and hills crazy strong?

Also I disagree that we should be making balance changes to pantheons based on your affinity for map scripts that place all the resources at the poles. Continents maps don’t have that kind of problem; your perception of this pantheon is warped to begin with.

 

[pineappledan]

Just pointing out that we already have university and rationalism giving to snow. With this, all blank snow tiles could go up to 110.53 before you put anything on them.

 

[Stalker0]

With this, all blank snow tiles could go up to 110.53 before you put anything on them.

Aka still garbage

In seriousness, if we consider a forest tundra (which is probably the best tile to work other than a resource).

It would be a 2 food, 2 hammer (3 with triangle), 1 faith, .5 culture tile. I mean that's a solid tile, but it also means all the resource tiles you started the city on get half the culture benefit, and to me that's what makes stars and skies pop. It gives me a lot of culture the second I pop the pantheon, kicking off my policies, and giving me access to wonders faster than I would otherwise.

Now this version would certainly gives me more culture in the long run....but also a lot later in the game when its not as valuable. Again you are getting more faith longterm, but once again not when its as valuable.


The biggest change was it will let you settle an otherwise "garbage" tundra spot and still have a solid city, as opposed to needing to get a tundra with lots of resources to be worthwhile.

 

[Valliand]

How about +1 for all tundra and snow tiles, +1 for all tundra and snow tiles with resources and +1 for every 2 worked tundra and snow tiles? I think giving all tiles +1 and +1 could make founding a bit too easy. Also giving the food and faith yields directly to the tiles instead of to the city is a bit nicer visually in terms of "yield porn". To me, thats the most satisfying part about this pantheon

 

[azum4roll]

Unless we make working 1 tundra and 1 snow give culture, I disagree with more +1 yield per 2 worked X/Y components.

 

[Stalker0]

I think giving all tiles +1 and +1 could make founding a bit too easy.

Honestly stars and skies is a very easy founder right now already, that's part of its appeal. Again the key here is your culture is nerfed heavily in the early game when you most need it.

 

[N.Core]

Also I disagree that we should be making balance changes to pantheons based on your affinity for map scripts that place all the resources at the poles. Continents maps don’t have that kind of problem; your perception of this pantheon is warped to begin with.

I kinda disagree with this statement because people play different maps. Making balance changes only catered to your type of map is biased; but complaining about changes that would shake the gameplay of your type of map because it's already balanced for it, is also biased in my opinion.

This proposal makes it agnostic to map generation because most maps have Tundra and Snow tiles (unless you're playing with exotic maps which the problem is with the map).

But that said, +1 and +1 to all worked Tundra/Snow tiles is a huge buff because it's the same as giving that yield to all Tundra/Snow tiles, which makes this Pantheon even stronger.

Make it +1 and +1 per 2 Tundra/Snow tiles instead and +1 for every 3 tiles.

 

[pineappledan]

I kinda disagree with this statement because people play different maps. Making balance changes only catered to your type of map is biased; but complaining about changes that would shake the gameplay of your type of map because it's already balanced for it, is also biased in my opinion.

No sorry, I can’t agree, not in this case at least.

OP didn't post a fuller picture of his map. look at this:

Spoiler :

I count 40 tundra an snow resources on a single screen. I roughly counted about 80 land tiles. About 0.5 resources per tile in a large area. How is this the pantheon's problem???

This is trying to make balance changes that are fundamentally pointing at the wrong thing. If you play with a map script that has resource distribution this obviously busted then you should understand that it is not any basis for making balance changes for the rest of the community. How can you draw any conclusions about balance based on a map like this?

The change that needs to happen is clearly to how Tectonic map distributes resources. I don’t even think I disagree that Stars and Sky is too strong, but this is no productive basis upon which to have this discussion.

 

[axatin]

you should understand that it is not any basis for making balance changes for the rest of the community. How can you draw any conclusions about balance based on a map like this?

This is a proposal. The rest of the community can vote against it if they disagree. And why shouldn't I be able to discuss a proposal that aims at making the pantheon terrain-based and not resource-based? After all, the pantheon would then be less map-dependent than it is currently, so everyone, including me, can contribute to a balance discussion about it, regardless of the map they play.

In general, it is preferable if a game element depends less on the map type because then player experience is more similar across different settings.

So, comparing this to other pantheons that give culture and faith:
Ancestor Worship: 1 Faith for every 4 Citizens, 1 Culture, 2 Faith from Councils
Earth Mother: 1 Faith and Culture from Mines on Resources, +1 Faith and Production from Monuments
Open Sky: 1 Faith and Culture for every 2 worked Grassland/Plains without Hills/Forest. +1 Faith and +3 Gold from Pastures

I would say that they would give roughly 3-5 Faith per City in Classical Era, and between 1 and 4 Culture.

The proposed pantheon would give 1 Culture per 2 Tundra tiles, and 1 Faith and Food for every tundra tile. The culture seems fine to me, but the Faith is indeed too strong. I will amend the proposal and nerf it to "1 Faith per two worked tiles". I'm also considering nerfing the Food to 1 per 2 tiles, that would maybe make it more balanced compared to the other pantheons. On the other hand, tundra and snow tiles (in particular those without resources) don't provide much food, so a rather strong food bonus could compensate for a bad starting location.

 

[N.Core]

The change that needs to happen is clearly to how Tectonic map distributes resources. I don’t even think I disagree that Stars and Sky is too strong, but this is no productive basis upon which to have this discussion.

My map doesn't affect resource generation. Blame VP's resource generation for this matter.

 

[azum4roll]

A founding pantheon should generate not more than 3 per city if all effects are instant, or it'll be better than the Celts UA.

 

[pineappledan]

So, comparing this to other pantheons that give culture and faith:
Ancestor Worship: 1 Faith for every 4 Citizens, 1 Culture, 2 Faith from Councils
Earth Mother: 1 Faith and Culture from Mines on Resources, +1 Faith and Production from Monuments
Open Sky: 1 Faith and Culture for every 2 worked Grassland/Plains without Hills/Forest. +1 Faith and +3 Gold from Pastures

I would say that they would give roughly 3-5 Faith per City in Classical Era, and between 1 and 4 Culture.

With the major caveat that none of those other pantheons require you to settle in tundra. Stars & Sky could be more generous if it actually felt like there was a cost.

I think we should try removing the from resource tiles. Feels too much like the pantheon is just counteracting the main weakness of tundra/snow. Let the pantheon give high faith & culture, but not address tundra’s growth problem. If players want they can pick hunt.

 

[axatin]

1 Faith per Tundra is really too strong, it would give much more faith than the other (non-celtic) pantheons. I think 1 Culture for every 3 tiles would be too weak, given how unattractive tundra tiles often are (and 1 Culture for every Tundra tile is obviously too strong). As to the food: If we go with 1 Culture, 1 Faith for every 2 Tundra tiles, giving no Food bonus at all would make the pantheon quite weak, as it would take a long time to work enough tundra tiles, and the culture/faith bonuses aren't that strong. I agree that 1 Food per worked Tundra tile would counteract the natural weakness of tundra, and the strong growth could cause culture/faith yields to be accumulated too quickly.

Taking this together, I've amended the proposal to "1 Food, Faith and Culture per 2 worked Tundra/Snow tiles".

If we assume a map with less than 50% resource tiles on tundra, this will give more rewards in the long run, but it would take much longer until they come into effect.

 

[azum4roll]

1 Food, Faith and Culture per 2 worked Tundra/Snow tiles

That really sucks in a tundra/snow mix.

 

[Stalker0]

Taking this together, I've amended the proposal to "1 Food, Faith and Culture per 2 worked Tundra/Snow tiles".

We've been here before. When we have tried to nerf SS before, this was similar to what we attempted. The problem is its faith yields are too slow, so it becomes a much more terrible founder, literally halving its faith strength compared to now (while this one would have greater faith scaling long term, that will be LOOOOONG after the initial founding and spread phases are over.

If your going this route, I would go with: +1 faith per tundra/snow resource. +1 food/culture per 2 tundra/snow (ideally either/or).

That keeps the faith scaling to what it is today, but nerfs the secondary yields quite a bit.

 

[axatin]

1 Faith per Tundra was also my initial idea, but wouldn‘t it be too much? But maybe if the food bonus is completely removed it’s fine…