[Vote] (6-37) Remove Overlap Between "Goddess of the Hunt" and "God of the Stars and Sky"

[ma_kuh]

Summary:
Goddess of the Hunt overlaps a lot with God of the Stars & Sky: both combine with Deer in polar spawns to provide a lot of yields. On top of this, the yields they generate are extremely samey: Faith, Food, Culture per resource. They are often an exercise in math to determine which one is technically superior for your start, but generally don't offer interesting choices, just an equation to solve. I propose to make their relative yields more unique so that picking one or the other is a decision on how you want your game to play out, rather than which one is more yields.

Pantheon	Current	Proposed	Reasoning
Goddess of the Hunt	+1 Faith, Culture and Gold from Camps. +2 Food from Smokehouse.	+1 Faith, Culture and Gold Food and Production from Camps. +2 Food Gold from Smokehouse.	This should be the premier infrastructure pantheon for Camp-heavy starts. By shifting from scaling culture and gold to food and production, the pantheon is more clearly aligned with this goal, serving to help both Tundra and Jungle starts with access to deer. This also separates it from both Stars and Sky and Goddess of Renewal by giving useful power-building yields without overlapping on culture and science. We keep some of the gold from camps by moving it to the Smokehouse, helping with maintenance.

 

[azum4roll]

Nooo, don't take faith off the resource improvements. Especially not while I'm counterproposing to add it to farms (God of the Sun).

Also, too many Palace pantheons.

 

[rkkn]

Also, too many Palace pantheons.

I can agree with that. I'd remove the palace bonuses from every pantheon except ones that are aimed at tall playstyles

 

[ma_kuh]

Okay, I buy that. This would become perhaps the only pantheon improvement without faith.

The palace add-in was specifically to address the lowered faith. I still don't like just Food on the Smokehouse. Maybe we can swap the faith and gold. In a weird turn about, it would mirror the (current) God of the Sun, by making the pantheon food building gold-positive.

Amended:

• +1 Faith, Culture and Gold Food and Production from Camps.
• +2 Food Gold from Smokehouse.

 

[adan_eslavo]

I prefered this as a combo proposal. If both of them need to be reworked to give an effect then splitting this proposal to two is pointless, as when one goes in and other goes out the synergy is not applied anymore.

 

[ma_kuh]

Comparing to the current version of Stars and Sky, my proposal was starting to look like change for the sake of change. Yes it removes Food scaling, but what's the difference between 2 Food from the city and 1 Food/resource, if you settle next to two Deer? Not much. But then you're also getting this free lingering Faith on the city, and the scaling science?

So I think there's a lot of reasons that my version of Stars and Sky might be a bad idea, yield creep being a big one. But it's not necessary for both pantheons to move away from each other to remove the overlap -- Hunt can move away by itself by getting rid of the Culture. I think it stands on its own, regardless of what ultimately happens with Stars and Sky.

 

[Stalker0]

I think the change hre is "fine", I mean it nerfs hunt but its not a crazy nerf. Ultimately though hunt wasn't the one people often point to as OP, so I feel like the greater imbalance is being left alone.

 

[ma_kuh]

I have a nerf for Stars and Sky as well, but I decoupled it from this because I thought they could stand on their own. I think splitting the yield types is most important, the amount of yields is something that can be tuned.

 

[azum4roll]

I sponsor this, but I think the proposed version is too weak.

 

[rkkn]

I'm counterproposing to add it to farms (God of the Sun)

what was this going to be?

 

[Zuizgond]

Seems like turning it into a very weak pantheon to me

 

[dostillevi]

If any of the increased Ivory proposals pass, camps will be somewhat more common across most of the map, which would make the pantheon (as is or as proposed) somewhat more viable outside of tundra starts (but not much).

I'm going to reiterate my growing objection to using pantheons as a means of allowing viability in certain starting terrains. I think it causes problems with pantheons and makes it all but necessary that civs in those starting locations (tundra), get one of the necessary pantheons.