[Database] (6-50) Warmonger Nerf: Sweden

[DoveCDog]

Problem: Currently Sweden is too strong when he gets going. All of the UA abilities stack up to a large degree.

Current:
Lion of the North
Infantry units have +20% CS when attacking
Siege units have +1 MP
When a GG is born, all units are fully healed and receive +15 XP
GG provide +15% CS

Proposal:
Lion of the North
Infantry units have +10% CS when attacking
Siege units have +1 MP
When a GG is born, all units are fully healed and receive 0 XP
GG provide +15% CS

Rationale: The Huns' unique ability gives them +10% damage per attack from any military unit. So, on average, a Hunnish player would need to attack the same target five times! (with any unit, admittedly) to receive the same damage boost on average as a Swedish player gets from attacking once (with infantry only) [math: (0 + 10 + 20 + 30 + 40) / 5 = 20] With this proposal, the ratio is reduced to 3 times [math: (0 + 10 + 20) / 3 = 10]. And this is not counting the extra GG bonus. Removing extra XP bonus for a further nerf. Full heal is already enough on a GG born.

 

[Rekk]

Why do you think this nerf is warranted? Is Sweden overperforming relative to other civilizations?

 

[DoveCDog]

Why do you think this nerf is warranted? Is Sweden overperforming relative to other civilizations?

In my games he is always much stronger than the other warmongers, he's the only one I'm afraid to spawn next to. I've seen a few other users saying the same on the forums here.

 

[andersw]

Rarely does well in my games, usually gets hammered and falls behind too much in the early game.
Its a weak science civ that doesnt shine until rifling who struggle vs early UUs and doesnt make a lot of friends.

 

[adan_eslavo]

When I looked at the UA for the first time I thought the same. I have no experience playing with or against them though.

 

[Diomedes_]

Yeah Sweden AIs in my experience are usually very weak. The civ itself can be quite strong in human hands, especially if you have Barbarian GG points enabled, but even still they are pretty inconsistent as their early game is quite temperamental.

 

[Rekk]

In my games he is always much stronger than the other warmongers, he's the only one I'm afraid to spawn next to. I've seen a few other users saying the same on the forums here.

So you don't want to be afraid of any warmonger if you spawn next to them? It sounds like Sweden should be the benchmark that the others to rise to, not the other way around.

 

[DoveCDog]

So you don't want to be afraid of any warmonger if you spawn next to them? It sounds like Sweden should be the benchmark that the others to rise to, not the other way around.

You're right, we should be afraid of all warmongers, not just Sweden. But in human hands, all of the warmongers are extremely strong already. Especially Sweden. Buffing them would create a further imbalance.

I'd agree that the warmonger civilizations are weaker in the AI's hands, but the correct course of action is to buff the general AI, not to give further egregious bonuses to the already strong warmonger civilizations. The problem is with the AI - that's the real reason they aren't that scary.

EDIT: Another point to mention, in the calculations I made in OP I didn't include the GG bonus. With the added +15% bonus, a Hunnic player would have to attack the same target over 8 times! to get a similar average damage bonus. I disagree that it's the Huns who need a buff here.

 

[DoveCDog]

Yeah Sweden AIs in my experience are usually very weak. The civ itself can be quite strong in human hands, especially if you have Barbarian GG points enabled, but even still they are pretty inconsistent as their early game is quite temperamental.

Maybe on smaller archipelago maps. On standard pangea they blow the other warmonger civs out of the water.

 

[Barna1]

But in human hands, all of the warmongers are extremely strong already. Especially Sweden.

I agree that warmongering feels much more powerful in human hands than in AI. I've been wondering if part of the reason is that the authority tree is less straightforward to use than tradition/progress. I think on-kill bonuses (and also the finisher) are much stronger in human hands, as the AI will always be less efficient at picking and killing off targets. I've been thinking about a proposal which nerfs these on-kill bonuses slightly (for example, only 10HP on-kill, or only 80% yields) and buffs more straightforward aspects of the tree. But I'm a bit worried that it would hit the most fun/satisfying part of the authority tree.