VP Congress: Session 6, Proposal 52
Discussion Thread: (6-52) Always Include Laborers In The Set Of Specialists
Proposer: @azum4roll
Sponsor(s): @azum4roll
Proposal Details
This is part of the Crusade For Consistency (CFC) series and sequel to the "All Yields" proposal.
Laborers are slots you can work in every city that gives a tiny bit of
Production, and some extra yields later in the game. They're in the Specialists table, but don't need to eat extra 
Food, and also don't cause 
Urbanization.
When a description mentions "Specialists get something", you never know if Laborers are included. Below are examples of when they're included and when they're not:
It makes sense for Food consumption- and Urbanization-related components to not include Laborers since they don't differ from normal citizens in those areas, but it's rather inconsistent in other components.
Proposal: Always imply Laborers are included in all text mentioning Specialists, and change all beliefs and Korea UA to include Laborers. Components that change Food consumption of Specialists and Happiness from Specialists have their text changed to "Specialists (except Laborers)" instead.
Additional changes:
Goddess of Wisdom: +2
Faith and 
Science in any City with a Specialist. -> +1 Faith and Science in any City with a Specialist.
Laborers are available right at the start. You can choose to allocate one Citizen to the Laborer slot for +1 in each city (on top of the +1 base). This makes the pantheon a fast starting one with a low ceiling (slower ones have 3-4 per city). It also no longer forces the owner to go for Trade - 2 other pantheons have benefits there already.
Lugh, the Skilled One: +2
Culture, Science, Food, and 
Gold in Cities with a Specialist. -> +2 Culture, Science, and Gold in Cities with a Specialist.
Taking out the Food so you can't get the yields right away when you found a new city. But otherwise it lines up this pantheon with the other Celtic pantheons which all provide some sort of immediate yield bonuses.
Lugh is currently quite underpowered because it only has a situational bonus (+10% World Wonder production) on founding.
Mastery: on top of the current bonuses, give +1
Golden Age Point and +1 Production to Laborers.
Notes:
Korea: you can work a Laborer for +1 at start, but this is rarely worth it and I don't think this is much of a buff.
If both this and the Goddess of Wisdom proposal pass, the change listed here will override the one in the other proposal, effectively obsoleting it.
VP Congress: Session 6, Proposal 52a
Discussion Thread: (6-52a) Laborers Do Not Count as Specialists
Proposer: @axatin
Sponsor(s): @azum4roll
Proposal Details
Proposal: The definition of "specialists" is made consistent, but in the other direction as in the OP: Laborers are never included when talking about Specialists.
Rationale: Laborers don't have increased food consumption, don't produce unhappiness from urbanization and don't create great person points, so in key characteristics they behave like normal citizens and not like specialists. I support the idea of making the definition of specialists consistent, but that should be done by always excluding laborers. I guess that most people wouldn't intuitively consider laborers as specialists, so if the OP passed, the change would be likely to be overlooked by new or sporadic players.
As laborers are not often used currently, buffs to compensate the nerfs to the buildings/policies that are affected by this change are not necessary for now.
Discussion Thread: (6-52) Always Include Laborers In The Set Of Specialists
Proposer: @azum4roll
Sponsor(s): @azum4roll
Proposal Details
This is part of the Crusade For Consistency (CFC) series and sequel to the "All Yields" proposal.
Laborers are slots you can work in every city that gives a tiny bit of
Production, and some extra yields later in the game. They're in the Specialists table, but don't need to eat extra Food, and also don't cause Urbanization.When a description mentions "Specialists get something", you never know if Laborers are included. Below are examples of when they're included and when they're not:
- Empire State Building: Specialists in all Cities produce +1 Gold. Includes Laborers.
- Statue of Liberty: +1 Production from Specialists in every City. Includes Laborers.
- Nuclear Plant: all Specialists generate +1 Production, Gold, Science, and Culture. Includes Laborers.
- Serfdom: +1 Culture in Cities for every 4 non-Specialist
Citizens. Includes Laborers, which means working them doesn't grant Culture. Similar with Great Leap Forward, which uses the same table. - Organized Religion: +1 Faith from Specialists. Includes Laborers. Similar with Shadow Networks, Refinement, Industry finisher, and Capitalism, which use the same table.
- Capitalism: 2 Specialists in each of your cities generate +1
Happiness instead of -1 Unhappiness from Urbanization. Does not include Laborers. Note that the other part of the tenet does include Laborers. - Civil Society: Specialists consume 2 Food less than normal (minimum 1 Food). Does not include Laborers.
- Majesty: Specialists in
Capital consume half the normal amount of Food. Does not include Laborers. - Mastery: Specialists generate +1 Golden Age Point and +1 of their primary Yield. Does not include Laborers.
- Creativity: +2 Faith if you have at least one Specialist in the City. Does not include Laborers. Similar with Goddess of Wisdom, Lugh, the Skilled One, and Cooperation, which use the same table.
- Scholars of the Jade Hall: +1 Science from Specialists, increasing by +1 in Medieval, Industrial, and Atomic Eras. Does not include Laborers.
It makes sense for Food consumption- and Urbanization-related components to not include Laborers since they don't differ from normal citizens in those areas, but it's rather inconsistent in other components.
Proposal: Always imply Laborers are included in all text mentioning Specialists, and change all beliefs and Korea UA to include Laborers. Components that change Food consumption of Specialists and Happiness from Specialists have their text changed to "Specialists (except Laborers)" instead.
Additional changes:
Goddess of Wisdom: +2
Faith and Science in any City with a Specialist. -> +1 Faith and Science in any City with a Specialist.Laborers are available right at the start. You can choose to allocate one Citizen to the Laborer slot for +1
in each city (on top of the +1 base). This makes the pantheon a fast starting one with a low ceiling (slower ones have 3-4 per city). It also no longer forces the owner to go for Trade - 2 other pantheons have benefits there already.Lugh, the Skilled One: +2
Culture, Science, Food, and Gold in Cities with a Specialist. -> +2 Culture, Science, and Gold in Cities with a Specialist.Taking out the
Food so you can't get the yields right away when you found a new city. But otherwise it lines up this pantheon with the other Celtic pantheons which all provide some sort of immediate yield bonuses.Lugh is currently quite underpowered because it only has a situational bonus (+10% World Wonder production) on founding.
Mastery: on top of the current bonuses, give +1
Golden Age Point and +1 Production to Laborers.Notes:
Korea: you can work a Laborer for +1
at start, but this is rarely worth it and I don't think this is much of a buff.If both this and the Goddess of Wisdom proposal pass, the change listed here will override the one in the other proposal, effectively obsoleting it.
VP Congress: Session 6, Proposal 52a
Discussion Thread: (6-52a) Laborers Do Not Count as Specialists
Proposer: @axatin
Sponsor(s): @azum4roll
Proposal Details
Proposal: The definition of "specialists" is made consistent, but in the other direction as in the OP: Laborers are never included when talking about Specialists.
Rationale: Laborers don't have increased food consumption, don't produce unhappiness from urbanization and don't create great person points, so in key characteristics they behave like normal citizens and not like specialists. I support the idea of making the definition of specialists consistent, but that should be done by always excluding laborers. I guess that most people wouldn't intuitively consider laborers as specialists, so if the OP passed, the change would be likely to be overlooked by new or sporadic players.
As laborers are not often used currently, buffs to compensate the nerfs to the buildings/policies that are affected by this change are not necessary for now.
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