[Vote] (6-52) Always (or Never) Include Laborers in the set of Specialists

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azum4roll

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azum4roll's proposal (6-52)

This is part of the Crusade For Consistency (CFC) series and sequel to the "All Yields" proposal.

Laborers are slots you can work in every city that gives a tiny bit of :c5production: Production, and some extra yields later in the game. They're in the Specialists table, but don't need to eat extra :c5food: Food, and also don't cause :c5unhappy: Urbanization.

When a description mentions "Specialists get something", you never know if Laborers are included. Below are examples of when they're included and when they're not:
  • Empire State Building: Specialists in all Cities produce +1 :c5gold: Gold. Includes Laborers.
  • Statue of Liberty: +1 :c5production: Production from Specialists in every City. Includes Laborers.
  • Nuclear Plant: all Specialists generate +1 :c5production: Production, :c5gold: Gold, :c5science: Science, and :c5culture: Culture. Includes Laborers.
  • Serfdom: +1 :c5culture: Culture in Cities for every 4 non-Specialist :c5citizen: Citizens. Includes Laborers, which means working them doesn't grant :c5culture: Culture. Similar with Great Leap Forward, which uses the same table.
  • Organized Religion: +1 :c5faith: Faith from Specialists. Includes Laborers. Similar with Shadow Networks, Refinement, Industry finisher, and Capitalism, which use the same table.
  • Capitalism: 2 Specialists in each of your cities generate +1 :c5happy: Happiness instead of -1 :c5unhappy: Unhappiness from Urbanization. Does not include Laborers. Note that the other part of the tenet does include Laborers.
  • Civil Society: Specialists consume 2 :c5food: Food less than normal (minimum 1 :c5food: Food). Does not include Laborers.
  • Majesty: Specialists in :c5capital: Capital consume half the normal amount of :c5food: Food. Does not include Laborers.
  • Mastery: Specialists generate +1 :c5goldenage: Golden Age Point and +1 of their primary Yield. Does not include Laborers.
  • Creativity: +2 :c5faith: Faith if you have at least one Specialist in the City. Does not include Laborers. Similar with Goddess of Wisdom, Lugh, the Skilled One, and Cooperation, which use the same table.
  • Scholars of the Jade Hall: +1 :c5science: Science from Specialists, increasing by +1 in Medieval, Industrial, and Atomic Eras. Does not include Laborers.

It makes sense for Food consumption- and Urbanization-related components to not include Laborers since they don't differ from normal citizens in those areas, but it's rather inconsistent in other components.


Proposal: Always imply Laborers are included in all text mentioning Specialists, and change all beliefs and Korea UA to include Laborers. Components that change Food consumption of Specialists and Happiness from Specialists have their text changed to "Specialists (except Laborers)" instead.

Additional changes:
Goddess of Wisdom: +2 :c5faith: Faith and :c5science: Science in any City with a Specialist. -> +1 :c5faith: Faith and :c5science: Science in any City with a Specialist.
Laborers are available right at the start. You can choose to allocate one Citizen to the Laborer slot for +1 :c5production: :c5science: :c5faith: in each city (on top of the +1 :c5science: :c5faith: base). This makes the pantheon a fast starting one with a low ceiling (slower ones have 3-4 :c5faith: per city). It also no longer forces the owner to go for Trade - 2 other pantheons have benefits there already.

Lugh, the Skilled One: +2 :c5culture: Culture, :c5science: Science, :c5food: Food, and :c5gold: Gold in Cities with a Specialist. -> +2 :c5culture: Culture, :c5science: Science, and :c5gold: Gold in Cities with a Specialist.
Taking out the :c5food: Food so you can't get the yields right away when you found a new city. But otherwise it lines up this pantheon with the other Celtic pantheons which all provide some sort of immediate yield bonuses.
Lugh is currently quite underpowered because it only has a situational bonus (+10% World Wonder production) on founding.


Mastery: on top of the current bonuses, give +1 :c5goldenage: Golden Age Point and +1 :c5production: Production to Laborers.

Notes:
Korea: you can work a Laborer for +1 :c5production: :c5science: at start, but this is rarely worth it and I don't think this is much of a buff.
If both this and the Goddess of Wisdom proposal pass, the change listed here will override the one in the other proposal, effectively obsoleting it.



axatin's proposal (6-52a)
You can read pre-poll discussion about this proposal here.

Proposal: The definition of "specialists" is made consistent, but in the other direction as in the OP: Laborers are never included when talking about Specialists.

Rationale: Laborers don't have increased food consumption, don't produce unhappiness from urbanization and don't create great person points, so in key characteristics they behave like normal citizens and not like specialists. I support the idea of making the definition of specialists consistent, but that should be done by always excluding laborers. I guess that most people wouldn't intuitively consider laborers as specialists, so if the OP passed, the change would be likely to be overlooked by new or sporadic players.

As laborers are not often used currently, buffs to compensate the nerfs to the buildings/policies that are affected by this change are not necessary for now.
 
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Organized Religion: +1 :c5faith: Faith from Specialists. Includes Laborers. Similar with Shadow Networks, Refinement, Industry finisher, and Capitalism, which use the same table.
Whilst not presented as its own line, it is mentioned, like most others.
 
If this doesn't pass, then the only change necessary is to update the relevant tooltips to say "and laborers", instead of the other policies saying "(except laborers)".

In fact, @Enginseer might even be doing this as we speak as part of his tooltip updates.
 
This would certainly open up some more options, which I think is almost always a good thing. I do think the GoW nerf is a bit harsh, however, and hurts normal specialists too much. 2 faith and 2 science in exchange for likely 3 or more food/gold/prod doesn't seem like too obvious a choice in a city with just a few citizens.
 
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This is just a change that does nothing.

Your proposed changes could just be "and laborers" for your specific set of abilities. There are more abilities that consider laborers not to be specialists than there are that consider laborers to be specialists, even with your proposed changes. Why are you proposing that we change the dll this way for seemingly no gain?
 
This is just a change that does nothing.

Your proposed changes could just be "and laborers" for your specific set of abilities. There are more abilities that consider laborers not to be specialists than there are that consider laborers to be specialists, even with your proposed changes. Why are you proposing that we change the dll this way for seemingly no gain?
I'm not the OP, but this certainly doesn't do "nothing". To be fair, you rarely use laborers in the late game, so the most meaningful difference this would have would be to pantheons and early policies/beliefs that currently only modify specialists. But there are moments in the late game where you do use laborers (like in recently conquered cities, island/food heavy cities with too much unhappiness, etc...), and it would certainly not make the game worse if those moments were more frequent and the decision to use laborers or not more meaningful.
 
Since laborer are inferior specialist (lower base yields, no GPP), I wouldn't mind if all bonuses relative to specialists would apply to laborers, too. Might rename them for consistency, although I don't have any idea yet.
If it is deemed too strong, one could add back urbanization from them (maybe at half value : -0.5 :c5unhappy: per laborer, if possible).
 
I'm not the OP, but this certainly doesn't do "nothing". To be fair, you rarely use laborers in the late game, so the most meaningful difference this would have would be to pantheons and early policies/beliefs that currently only modify specialists. But there are moments in the late game where you do use laborers (like in recently conquered cities, island/food heavy cities with too much unhappiness, etc...), and it would certainly not make the game worse if those moments were more frequent and the decision to use laborers or not more meaningful.
He's only adding laborers to 4 abilities. The rest now need to state that they specifically exclude laborers. He could just have added "and laborers" to those abilities and changed specifically them instead of the rest of this makework.

Now more abilities need to include text specifically exclude laborers than text that gets to remove "and laborers".

It would be somewhat different if he was proposing to add laborers to every ability that relates to specialists.

Don't laborers consume food as if they were rural population? Laborers aren't specialists.
 
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It may be balanced, but to me the key should be consistency. If they are specialists, then things that apply to specialists should apply to them. If they're a "special specialist" with +1 food +1 production and Unhappiness from Urbanization -1, then that's fine, but I don't think the game currently makes it clear when/if they count for some things. A lot of that is just making sure the same language is used whenever an ability talks about yields it's giving out.
 
Now more abilities need to include text specifically exclude laborers than text that gets to remove "and laborers".
Currently 9.5 game components include laborers and 8.5 don't. If this passes, only 2.5 components don't include laborers.
 
Added condition if both this and the Goddess of Wisdom proposal pass.
 
Currently 9.5 game components include laborers and 8.5 don't. If this passes, only 2.5 components don't include laborers.
Okay, it seems I became confused, then. Your main proposal of "all beliefs and the Korea UA include laborers" is overshadowed by your specific changes section. It's further obfuscated that your specific changes section includes Korea's UA, but no actual changes are made here.

Perhaps something like this:
Spoiler :

Proposal: Always imply Laborers are included in all text mentioning Specialists, and change all beliefs and Korea UA to include Laborers. Components that change Food consumption of Specialists and Happiness from Specialists have their text changed to "Specialists (except Laborers)" instead.

Additional changes:
Goddess of Wisdom: +2 :c5faith: Faith and :c5science: Science in any City with a Specialist. -> +1 :c5faith: Faith and :c5science: Science in any City with a Specialist.
Laborers are available right at the start. You can choose to allocate one Citizen to the Laborer slot for +1 :c5production: :c5science: :c5faith: in each city (on top of the +1 :c5science: :c5faith: base). This makes the pantheon a fast starting one with a low ceiling (slower ones have 3-4 :c5faith: per city). It also no longer forces the owner to go for Trade - 2 other pantheons have benefits there already.

Lugh, the Skilled One: +2 :c5culture: Culture, :c5science: Science, :c5food: Food, and :c5gold: Gold in Cities with a Specialist. -> +2 :c5culture: Culture, :c5science: Science, and :c5gold: Gold in Cities with a Specialist.
Taking out the :c5food: Food so you can't get the yields right away when you found a new city. But otherwise it lines up this pantheon with the other Celtic pantheons which all provide some sort of immediate yield bonuses.
Lugh is currently quite underpowered because it only has a situational bonus (+10% World Wonder production) on founding.


Mastery: on top of the current bonuses, give +1 :c5goldenage: Golden Age Point and +1 :c5production: Production to Laborers.

Notes:
Korea: you can work a Laborer for +1 :c5production: :c5science: at start, but this is rarely worth it and I don't think this is much of a buff.
If both this and the Goddess of Wisdom proposal pass, the change listed here will override the one in the other proposal, effectively obsoleting it.

or even Enginseer's method:
Spoiler :

Proposal
Always imply Laborers are included in all text mentioning Specialists, and change all beliefs and Korea UA to include Laborers. Components that change Food consumption of Specialists and Happiness from Specialists are unaffected, and have their text changed to "Specialists (except Laborers)" instead.
Additional Changes
CurrentProposedDifferencesRationale
Goddess of Wisdom+1 :c5science: Science, +1 :c5faith: Faith in every City, and +2 :c5greatperson: Great Scientist Points in Capital/Holy City. +2 :c5faith: Faith and :c5science: Science in any City with a Specialist.+1 :c5science: Science, +1 :c5faith: Faith in every City, and +2 :c5greatperson: Great Scientist Points in Capital/Holy City. +1 :c5faith: Faith and :c5science: Science in any City with a Specialist.-1 :c5faith: Faith and :c5science: Science in any City with a SpecialistLaborers are available right at the start. You can choose to allocate one Citizen to the Laborer slot for +1 :c5production: :c5science: :c5faith: in each city (on top of the +1 :c5science: :c5faith: base). This makes the pantheon a fast starting one with a low ceiling (slower ones have 3-4 :c5faith: per city). It also no longer forces the owner to go for Trade - 2 other pantheons have benefits there already.
Lugh, the Skilled One+2 :c5culture: Culture, Science, :c5food: Food, and :c5gold: Gold in Cities with a Specialist. +10% :c5production: Production towards Wonders. +3 :c5production: Production from Ceilidh Hall.+2 :c5culture: Culture, Science, :c5food: Food, and :c5gold: Gold in Cities with a Specialist. +10% :c5production: Production towards Wonders. +3 :c5production: Production from Ceilidh Hall.-2:c5food: Food in Cities with a SpecialistTaking out the :c5food: Food so you can't get the yields right away when you found a new city. But otherwise it lines up this pantheon with the other Celtic pantheons which all provide some sort of immediate yield bonuses.
Lugh is currently quite underpowered because it only has a situational bonus (+10% World Wonder production) on founding.
MasterySpecialists generate +1 :c5goldenage: Golden Age Point and +1 of their primary Yield :)c5science: Scientist, :c5gold: Merchant/Civil Servant, :c5production: Engineer, :c5culture: Writer/Artist/Musician).Specialists generate +1 :c5goldenage: Golden Age Point and +1 of their primary Yield :)c5science: Scientist, :c5gold: Merchant/Civil Servant, :c5production: Laborer/Engineer, :c5culture: Writer/Artist/Musician).Laborers generate +1 :c5production: when worked.
Notes
Korea: you can work a Laborer for +1 :c5production: :c5science: at start, but this is rarely worth it and I don't think this is much of a buff.
If both this and the Goddess of Wisdom proposal pass, the change listed here will override the one in the other proposal, effectively obsoleting it.
 
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Ok, edited.
 
I sponsor this.
 
I like the idea of letting the specialist-needing beliefs use Laborers to trigger their effects. I think it opens up novel ways to allocate population.
 
Now THAT is a counter-proposal :D

I'm on the side that the flexibility of having the early labourer fulfil the pantheon requirements is cute.
 
I think it's an elegant change to both Wisdom and Lugh. We probably need to buff Lugh some other way if this doesn't pass.
 
Will the AI know how to use laborers with all these bonuses, and will it know to use them for immediate bonuses from pantheons etc?
 
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