[Complex] (6-85a) Siam Rework (Less Extreme)

[azum4roll]

Counterproposal of:

[Complex] - (6-85) Siam Rework

Current situation: Current UA: :c5influence: Influence with :c5citystate: City-States starts at 40. Yields from Friendly and Allied :c5citystate: City-States increased by 100%. +25% to :c5strength: Combat Strength of Allied :c5citystate:City-State :c5capital:Capitals. +10 Experience to Units...

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Current Siam UA:
Influence with City-States starts at 40.
Yields from Friendly and Allied City-States increased by 100%.
+25% to Combat Strength of Allied City-State Capitals.
+10 Experience to Units gifted by City-States.

Current Wat:
Constabulary replacement
Unlocks at Theology (2 tech tiers earlier) and costs the same as buildings on the same tier
On top of Constabulary,
+2 1 1
+1 Scientist slot
+1 to Forests and Jungles
+2 to Shrine and Temple in the same city

Proposed Siam UA:
Influence with City-States starts at 40.
Yields from Friendly and Allied City-States increased by 100%.
+25% to Combat Strength of Allied City-State Capitals.

If Pledge of Protection requirement proposal passes, change last line to:
+25% Combat Strength for Units of City-States you Pledged to Protect. (new code)

Proposed Wat:
Remove +1 to Forests and Jungles
Add +15 Influence from Diplomatic Missions (via promotion).
If any espionage proposal that changes its security value passes, follow its change.

Siam start bias: removed

Rationale (over the original proposal):
I agree with the push to remove their start bias. It will benefit their UU too, which currently cannot move-attack-move 90% of the time.
+10 Experience from unit gifts is a leftover from vanilla Siam UA. It wasn't even mentioned in the UA text until recently, which speaks enough how forgetable this part of the UA is.
The one-off bonus defines their start with how early it is. The originally proposed +100% bonus on everything cannot replace this bonus.
+25% CS on CS capital isn't too important either, but it helps Siam keep their allied CS alive.
New code on bonus strength on pledged CS units helps them even more on self-defense, and would not overlap with Greece's UA that gives bonus strength on allied CS units.
Next congress I will propose to revamp the Siam UA again to focus fully on pledges, but that requires the pledge proposal to pass first so it's not binary.
Wat is a very strong building replacing an often forgetable building. It's already very Science focused and doesn't need more Science on buildings. However, the proposed +10 Influence to Diplomatic Missions is too weak (same as Chancery), so I increased it to +15.

Scope: potentially complex if the pledge proposal passes, otherwise database changes only.

 

[AndreyK]

I think that both proposals are straight nerf to Siam, which doesn't outperform right now.

 

[azum4roll]

I think that both proposals are straight nerf to Siam, which doesn't outperform right now.

It's a sidegrade.

Need to wait for the pledge rework to push the other changes.

 

[pineappledan]

Greece is the better candidate, if you want to make a civ focus on defensive pacts

 

[rkkn]

the initial influence is a fun bonus that I definitely don't want to see removed.
I don't play Siam all that often, but it's one of the main reasons for picking them when I do. (The other reason is the +100% yields)

 

[Stalker0]

It's a sidegrade.

You think +15 influence to diplo units is worth losing 1 culture ot every forest/jungle tile. I....just don't do it.

 

[rkkn]

You think +15 influence to diplo units is worth losing 1 culture ot every forest/jungle tile. I....just don't do it.

yeah this is basically chancery without the production vs zoo without the instant science

 

[pineappledan]

This fails at a basic design level. Instead of capitalizing on Siam’s existing bonuses (more rewards for CS relationships), you’re trying to stack greece and Siam on top of each other.

Greece treats all CS territory as friendly (for healing etc), and gets a combat bonus for CS allies. Your DoP reward for Asian is just trying to make Siam a poor man’s Greece. And would players even care? This isn’t going to make me try to go aggressive with Siam; it’s too map dependent and too situational whether I can even use this bonus.

 

[azum4roll]

This fails at a basic design level. Instead of capitalizing on Siam’s existing bonuses (more rewards for CS relationships), you’re trying to stack greece and Siam on top of each other.

Greece treats all CS territory as friendly (for healing etc), and gets a combat bonus for CS allies. Your DoP reward for Asian is just trying to make Siam a poor man’s Greece. And would players even care? This isn’t going to make me try to go aggressive with Siam; it’s too map dependent and too situational whether I can even use this bonus.

It's still a pure buff from what they have now, before the whole UA gets expanded to focus on pledges. Pledges and allies are definitely different mechanics.

 

[Rekk]

If Pledge of Protection requirement proposal passes, change last line to:
+25% Combat Strength for Units of City-States you Pledged to Protect. (new code)

A sponsor has to commit to doing the extra dll work before knowing if the other proposal passes.

 

[pineappledan]

Pledges and allies are definitely different mechanics.

Which you are proposing to give 80% similar bonuses and will use to tilt Siam to more of a diplo/war focus, which we already have 2 of (Greece and Germany). Furthermore it interacts specifically with CS territory, the same as Greece.

Siam is currently the most pure diplomatic civ, with only a slight SV advantage as a fallback. We don’t need another diplo war civ, and we certainly don’t need it by way of situational and samey bonuses tied to untested mechanics.

You could opt to change Greece’s % based combat bonus from CS relationships tied to DoPs, but instead you opt to make 2 of those where 1 existed before. Tie it specifically to CS territory, so it also looks like Greece’s 2nd bonus for good measure. Why, if you want to propose a civ that emphasizes the DoP mechanic, wouldn’t you change Greece instead of trying to use DoPs as a pretext to turn Siam into knock-off Greece? The combat bonus based on DoPs makes more thematic sense on “Hellenic Lesgue” than “Father Governs Children” to boot

 

[azum4roll]

Which you are proposing to give 80% similar bonuses and will use to tilt Siam to more of a diplo/war focus, which we already have 2 of (Greece and Germany). Furthermore it interacts specifically with CS territory, the same as Greece.

Siam is currently the most pure diplomatic civ, with only a slight SV advantage as a fallback. We don’t need another diplo war civ, and we certainly don’t need it by way of situational and samey bonuses tied to untested mechanics.

You could opt to change Greece’s % based combat bonus from CS relationships tied to DoPs, but instead you opt to make 2 of those where 1 existed before. Tie it specifically to CS territory, so it also looks like Greece’s 2nd bonus for good measure. Why, if you want to propose a civ that emphasizes the DoP mechanic, wouldn’t you change Greece instead of trying to use DoPs as a pretext to turn Siam into knock-off Greece? The combat bonus based on DoPs makes more thematic sense on “Hellenic Lesgue” than “Father Governs Children” to boot

I don't see how it'll ever make them a "war" civ, with the combat bonuses applying to CS units only. It's meant to protect the CS from enemies so they can secure their diplomatic victory.

 

[Recursive]

I don't like the overlap with Greece.