Captain Carrot
Chieftain
- Joined
- May 4, 2022
- Messages
- 53
Counterproposal to:
The current tribute mechanism according to Recursive:
Proposal: instead of the tribute picking from the master's existing units and forming a bundle for all the vassals, have it pick two from the units each vassal can train, with some exceptions:
The policy-unlocked unit limitation from 7-86a is removed because, unless I'm misremembering something, the only policy-unlocked units are Authority's mercenaries, which aren't all that different from regular infantry of the same tier (unless the gold-on-heal proposal passes, in which case, change this one to exclude them specifically), and ideological units, which would be the same for the master and the vassal as vassals adopt the master's ideology.
The newly-added limitation prevents the potential way to circumvent the unit limit.
Rationale: I don't remember any recent discussions about vassal balance, but iirc a year or two ago it was agreed that vassalizing AI civs is super strong and you're basically obligated to get at least one or two to win on the highest difficulties. I likewise don't remember any changes to vassalage in that time (and a quick search through the Passed Proposals subforum yielded no results), so I assume the problem persists (and in my last game a year ago my vassal certainly helped). I understand that the primary way that vassals contribute to the master's power is by giving away their
Science and 
Culture, but buffing their other bonuses doesn't help solve the issue.
This version also makes a bit more thematic sense to me as the vassal wouldn't send the units it has no way of getting itself, and could send something outdated if the master is too greedy and takes away all of its gold. Very colonial.
I think ideally we'd change the system to something more configurable, where the master chooses what the vassalage contract will focus on (science, culture, units, gold, possibly multiple of those at the cost of even lower opinion), and to what extent, kind of like it currently works with the adjustable gold tax, and also that the era tribute actually physically gives some of the vassal's existing units to the master, but as I couldn't come up with a complete system, I wanted to at least steer the incoming minor change in that direction.
Amended to exclude the Siege Tower from the exceptions (not a military unit), and add the resource and UU-upgrade exceptions.
(7-86) Vassal Unit Tribute at Era change: Use highest tier unit not lowest, no more recon units.
Proposal: When you change eras, your vassal each grant you units as a tribute. That unit is often equal to the lowest unit you have in your empire. So if I have machine guns, but I forgot to upgrade a musketman in the corner of my empire somewhere, they can give me a musketman. the Proposal...
forums.civfanatics.com
(7-86a) Vassal unit tribute - cannot gift units obsoleted for vassal, allow vassal UU
Counterproposal of: https://forums.civfanatics.com/threads/7-86-vassal-unit-tribute-at-era-change-use-highest-tier-unit-not-lowest-no-more-recon-units.689131/ Proposal: Vassal can gift any unit class that the master already has, at equal weight, except: 1. Units that have already obsoleted for...
forums.civfanatics.com
The current tribute mechanism according to Recursive:
Proposal: instead of the tribute picking from the master's existing units and forming a bundle for all the vassals, have it pick two from the units each vassal can train, with some exceptions:
- Units with DefaultUnitAI = UNITAI_EXPLORE, which include Pathfinder, Scout, Explorer, Commando, and Bandeirantes (but does not include Conquistadors);
- Units that can settle new cities (Conquistador);
- Units with a limited number - Supercarriers, etc (are there any others?);
- One-use units - missiles and nukes;
- Units that cost a strategic resource that the master doesn't have, unless the vassal has it (can just buy it);
- Units that are direct upgrades to the vassal's UU (the UU is still trainable and should be given instead).
The policy-unlocked unit limitation from 7-86a is removed because, unless I'm misremembering something, the only policy-unlocked units are Authority's mercenaries, which aren't all that different from regular infantry of the same tier (unless the gold-on-heal proposal passes, in which case, change this one to exclude them specifically), and ideological units, which would be the same for the master and the vassal as vassals adopt the master's ideology.
The newly-added limitation prevents the potential way to circumvent the unit limit.
Rationale: I don't remember any recent discussions about vassal balance, but iirc a year or two ago it was agreed that vassalizing AI civs is super strong and you're basically obligated to get at least one or two to win on the highest difficulties. I likewise don't remember any changes to vassalage in that time (and a quick search through the Passed Proposals subforum yielded no results), so I assume the problem persists (and in my last game a year ago my vassal certainly helped). I understand that the primary way that vassals contribute to the master's power is by giving away their
Science and Culture, but buffing their other bonuses doesn't help solve the issue.This version also makes a bit more thematic sense to me as the vassal wouldn't send the units it has no way of getting itself, and could send something outdated if the master is too greedy and takes away all of its gold. Very colonial.
I think ideally we'd change the system to something more configurable, where the master chooses what the vassalage contract will focus on (science, culture, units, gold, possibly multiple of those at the cost of even lower opinion), and to what extent, kind of like it currently works with the adjustable gold tax, and also that the era tribute actually physically gives some of the vassal's existing units to the master, but as I couldn't come up with a complete system, I wanted to at least steer the incoming minor change in that direction.
Amended to exclude the Siege Tower from the exceptions (not a military unit), and add the resource and UU-upgrade exceptions.
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Anyway, coupled with your first two exclusions, there really is little change now, unless the master has no units of a certain class the vassal can build, I suppose. Although that is kind of thematic, like Greek and Roman cavalry usually being recruited from allies. Can also get a tank instantly after researching combustion if you have a GPTI or a city on oil, that's funny. That, and I allow ideological units and a limited way to get strategic-starved units I guess? I think I'll just keep this and vote for both, unless this check is way harder to compute or something, might withdraw it in that case.
