[Complex] (7-NS) co-proposal: ruins spawn treasure unit instead of instant yields

[Tekamthi]

From original proposal:

In the fifth session, a proposal was passed to rebalance ancient ruins and overall smooth their power, which was great. However, lumped in with those changes was the change that only recon units can pick them up, which was less great. This proposal aims to (mostly) revert that aspect only

The discussion when this specific aspect passed touched on attempting to make the ancient ruins and exploration a bit more of a recon mini-game and more fun -- in this regard I think most agree the change was... underwhelming. But reverting back to previous state with no other change leaves us back with that initial desire.

Whether we revert or not, this mini-game aspect could be achieved via feature that already exists in civ 5: the conquest of the new world scenario has "treasure" units, essentially civilians that must be moved back to capital to reap their yields.

This is a co-proposal to 7-18, not a counter. 7-27 should be considered alongside as well.

Proposal:

Adapt the new world treasure units to VP's ancient ruins:

• clearing ancient ruins doesn't give immediate yields, instead spawns civilian unit that must carry the yields back to capital
• ruin unit is assigned existing treasure AI
• ruin unit gains movement of any military unit stacked on it, otherwise base 2 moves
• ruin unit half moves in enemy territory, but can ever rival without war dec
• ruin unit is capturable by all units, like a worker
• ruin unit invisible unless rival unit adjacent (like submarine)
• ruin unit spawns with orders to return to capital already-applied: clicking for new orders only necessary if player wants to deviate the route etc.
• ruin unit gains any embarkation ability of the unit that unlocks it from the ruins, otherwise just follows player's global embarkation status

• the straight numerical yields are just attached to the ruin unit's arrival in capital
• upgrade ruin does not spawn ruin unit, instead flags the unlocking unit as upgradeable regardless if tech is available, but still requiring the $$ and movement back to friendly
• map ruin works same as before, no change

MAGI: Complex Proposal, database and DLL changes

 

[hokath]

It's quite a big suggestion. I think maybe warrants a playtest first? I have no idea how this will feel.

 

[Tekamthi]

Aye, agreed. This is beyond my ability to sponsor so we'll see how far it even goes this round. I *think* it might be possible via modmod -- but outside of where I'm most familiar with database and Lua capabilities -- something I might look at down the road if there is sufficient interest but this otherwise fails. That said I'm confident most of the structure exists, might need a bit of helper code here and there at most.

I think the strongest case here is twofold: it's not really a new feature but an unused vanilla feature, and there is potential to actually add some depth to early game, as was desired when initial recon ruins was passed -- currently there is little productive reasons for early wars, beyond capturing workers -- we could really increase the capturable targets during time when workers are scarce, and thus add some interesting incentive and pay off for early conflict.

 

[hokath]

Yeah I think it could be really interesting. Especially if recon units weren't quite so godlike and the map remaining dark for longer, could be quite intense!

 

[pineappledan]

ewwwww..... This seems like a lot of extra clicks for some little bonuses early. Do not want.

 

[Tekamthi]

ewwwww..... This seems like a lot of extra clicks for some little bonuses early. Do not want.

Fair point, we'd need an option to automate, perhaps, like a toggle for auto workers... When toggled, Unit spawns with orders to return to capital already applied, leaving player to intervene only if desired. Then we still have no click yields, just delayed a few turns

There are a few issues to work out here, certainly -- also what happens to ruin unit spawned by tb3 recon on an island? Does the existing movement sharing functionality also apply embark ability? I'm guessing not. Could just have these always embarkable as a 'dumb' solution, though this then becomes abusable as early strat will be to move them back via water where there are no threats...

 

[Rekk]

@Stalker0 @axatin @Recursive are "co-proposals" a thing?

 

[Tekamthi]

@Stalker0 @axatin @Recursive are "co-proposals" a thing?

really this could be a standalone -- but its so closely attached to same part of game as 7-18 that we'd want it to be considered alongside imo. Maybe 7-27 should be bundled too for that matter, though that one is a little different. This is all assuming sponsor is willing to figure this stuff out.

 

[Recursive]

@Stalker0 @axatin @Recursive are "co-proposals" a thing?

Per the VP Congress Guide, this would be a non-conflicting counterproposal.

 

[azum4roll]

Invisibility alone is not possible to modmod. A lot of points in this proposal also sound like "Lua jank" that's out of place with the rest of VP.

 

[Tekamthi]

Invisibility alone is not possible to modmod. A lot of points in this proposal also sound like "Lua jank" that's out of place with the rest of VP.

Sure it is. Just give them same invisibility as submarines, like exact same database tag -- there are no subs or anti subs til long after ruins are all gone, and even if there is some occasional overlap in their existence, just means the anti sub units will be able to see these treasure units a little easier than others, this won't disrupt gameplay if it's even noticeable to player.

Implementing this as modmod would require Lua certainly, but only to handle the yield delivery as the unit enters city plot and perhaps to determine which flavor of yield is to be spawned. I'd have to test this feature, a well as the mechanism via which ruins can spawn units, a little more to speak with certainty on these points -- proposal is somewhat hopeful that a sponsor will be interested who is familiar with the codebase here -- but recall this is VANILLA feature, its mostly already implemented, just unused.

Anyway while I have some attention on the treasure unit concept: if proposal is not to your collective tastes, do you see any other fit for a treasure unit in VP? It strikes me as having potential to add some combat depth, some new objectives to warfare.... The AI is the limitation, all it knows to do is to move these to capital, so that must be part of any theorycrafting.

Also, if any devs are familiar, is the treasure AI still there? I last tried it, it was, but that was probably 3+ years ago.

 

[Stalker0]

Having a high tier invisibility recon unit would be insanely powerful, the chaos and damage you could cause with just one unit would make the "upgrade the unit 1 step" ability look like puppy chow.

 

[Tekamthi]

Having a high tier invisibility recon unit would be insanely powerful, the chaos and damage you could cause with just one unit would make the "upgrade the unit 1 step" ability look like puppy chow.

I think we're getting our wires crossed with other proposals -- all I'm proposing here is that the theorycrafted "treasure" civilian units that might carry our yields home to capital (rather than ruins giving instant yields as is status quo), would be invisible. The invisibility is really tangential feature to the "treasure unit" concept -- player will have choice of escorting these home or to keep exploring, and risk them getting captured with no escort; invisibility makes returning these civilians to capital unescorted slightly more viable, that's it. I speculate this might create some fun cat-and-mouse dynamic, as a rival might see that a ruin was popped last turn, but not necessarily which way the treasure unit went.

I will remove the word "recon" from the thread title for now, as there's really nothing to do with recon here. If the feedback can clarify that proposal would really be better without the invisibility aspect, it definitely can be removed, but I will wait on the discussion to develop a little further though on that point.

 

[Stalker0]

I think we're getting our wires crossed with other proposals -- all I'm proposing here is that the theorycrafted "treasure" civilian units that might carry our yields home to capital (rather than ruins giving instant yields as is status quo), would be invisible. The invisibility is really tangential feature to the "treasure unit" concept -- player will have choice of escorting these home or to keep exploring, and risk them getting captured with no escort; invisibility makes returning these civilians to capital unescorted slightly more viable, that's it. I speculate this might create some fun cat-and-mouse dynamic, as a rival might see that a ruin was popped last turn, but not necessarily which way the treasure unit went.

I will remove the word "recon" from the thread title for now, as there's really nothing to do with recon here. If the feedback can clarify that proposal would really be better without the invisibility aspect, it definitely can be removed, but I will wait on the discussion to develop a little further though on that point.

ah yes I did think that was a treasure ability, rather than the unit iteslef. apologies

 

[N.Core]

I would rather make the treasure unit spawned after you razed a city, kinda like loot that you have to bring into one of your cities. Wartime is already a click-fest anyway.
I dislike having more clicks to do at Ancient, even though I usually explore the map manually.

 

[Tekamthi]

/agree there are a few other opportunities for treasure unit -- the most natural design, maybe, would be to swap the instant yields from city capture to some kind of unit, or razing as you suggest.

Could also be a separate/new mechanism via events system. I'll look at a few other options for future congress, or maybe modmod

Edit: somewhere buried in the modmod sub forum is a rework I did on whoward's "population unit" -- this is in fact a razing treasure unit much like you suggest

 

[Recursive]

Timestamp post to arrange all the threads in a neat order.