[UI] (7-NS) All Tier 2 Ideology Tenets are accessible

[Revolutionist_8]

Proposal: all Tier 2 Ideology Tenets can be chosen, the human player is no longer restricted to choose only 4 out of the 7. The Ideology Tenets screen is enlarged, to have space for the extra 3 Tenets. The hierarchy remains the same, only 5 Tier 1 Tenets are needed for all Tier 2, and only 4 Tier 2 Tenets are needed for all Tier 3 Tenets. The ideology picture is moved slightly to the right.
Amendment: added "only 5 Tier 1 Tenets are needed for all Tier 2 Tenets" (better clarification of the structure)

Rationale: All Tier 1 Tenets and all Tier 3 Tenets can be chosen, but only 4 out from the 7 Tier 2 ones. 3 powerful Tenets being wasted due to UI limitations feels kinda unfair. Especially considering the fact that as azum4roll mentioned, the AI just simply ignores the limit and can have more than 14 Tenets (7 + 4 + 3).

Spoiler picture of the subject :

Possibly serious UI problem to consider: since Ideological Tenets is in the same window as Social Policies, my assumption is that the whole Social Screen tab should be enlarged, which may create weird looks for the regular Social Policies screen. Alternatively, those segments can be enlarged as well slightly, another option is to drop the ideology picture, but I'd never do that, I'd rather have only 4 tenets

 

[pineappledan]

You will need a sponsor who is willing to redo the UI on this menu.
You will need to decide what is to be done with the ideology splash. Dropping the art will be sad.
Personally, I would rather keep things as they are, or limit the AI to choosing 4 like players are. The limitation creates a choice, and forcing players to make choices is good.

 

[Revolutionist_8]

You will need a sponsor who is willing to redo the UI on this menu.
You will need to decide what is to be done with the ideology splash. Dropping the art will be sad.
Personally, I would rather keep things as they are, or limit the AI to choosing 4 like players are. The limitation creates a choice, and forcing players to make choices is good.

• yes, I know. I don't have high hopes for a sponsor here, but worth at least a Proposal Phase
• as I've written, I'd never abandon that. I'd rather keep the way things are now than do that
• that is what I'm considering, but I probably can't create a counterproposal to my own proposal Yes, that part is what I agree with, but you're already making a choice by prioritizing. Being restricted due to UI limitations feels bad. 8-9 out 10 times you're probably making the same choices (the strongest, most generic ones out from the list), so the 3 being unused feels like a waste, because they also have interesting abilities.
  Then there is the discrepancy that only T2 being affected

I'll try to check what can be done and how hard is the UI part, maybe I can create a modmod for this.

 

[CppMaster]

that is what I'm considering, but I probably can't create a counterproposal to my own proposal

Really? That would be weird

 

[CppMaster]

Dropping the art will be sad.

It could be dropped (or in background like social policy arts) after 4th t2 is choosen. By that time you had plenty of time to look at it anyway. Or just toggle to show or hide it if it's that important, lol.

 

[axatin]

The image could be made smaller and moved to the bottom-right corner.

 

[Revolutionist_8]

Really? That would be weird

It could be dropped (or in background like social policy arts) after 4th t2 is choosen. By that time you had plenty of time to look at it anyway. Or just toggle to show or hide it if it's that important, lol.

Nooooooooooooo

The image could be made smaller and moved to the bottom-right corner.

Nooooooooooooo.... wait... how smaller?

 

[CppMaster]

View attachment 688659

Yeah, I never understood what's the point of that rule. What if you are fine with 2 different options and would like the community to decide which one is better? You would have to ask someone else to do counterproposal? Or even worse, to do it from a different account? What does exactly this rule accomplish?

 

[Stalker0]

Yeah, I never understood what's the point of that rule. What if you are fine with 2 different options and would like the community to decide which one is better? You would have to ask someone else to do counterproposal? Or even worse, to do it from a different account? What does exactly this rule accomplish?

It prevents people spamming the board with several different versions because they aren't willing to commit to one. Proposals are meant to be done "with confidence", that you have chosen values with some thought and care to them. If you just put in 4 proposals with different values because you don't care which one.... than perhaps you haven't given enough thought to what the right value is.

Requiring others to counterpropose includes more of the community in the discussion and ensures you need to find others that agree your alternate value is worth considering.

 

[CppMaster]

Ok, that friction itself actually make sense.

But then why not just have an option to create a single proposal with multiple versions that community can vote which version is the best? It wouldn't be spamming, since it's just one proposal.

 

[Rekk]

Ok, that friction itself actually make sense.

But then why not just have an option to create a single proposal with multiple versions that community can vote which version is the best? It wouldn't be spamming, since it's just one proposal.

Because it suggests you haven't put enough care or thought into your proposal. Pick a value and confidently state that this value is correct.

 

[Stalker0]

looking at the grpahic, it seems easy enough to include 2 more boxes by removing the image (or shrinking it and moving it elsewhere).

However, with the 3rd one...you don't have enough tier 1 tenents to meet your prereqs, unless you want to relax that too with this change.

 

[Karlos_BR]

I used to resent not being able to pick all tenets from tier 2, but I learned to appreciate it. It's cool that you can, in a way, customize your ideology to fit your needs for each game. I just find it weird that this feature is only for tier 2 tenets.

 

[Recursive]

But then why not just have an option to create a single proposal with multiple versions that community can vote which version is the best? It wouldn't be spamming, since it's just one proposal.

For the same reason as Stalker described.

And also check out these votes - too many options gets confusing:

[Vote] - (4-21) Espionage Rework Proposals

Hey all, Doing a revote on this set of proposals for two reasons: 1) The number of options made it too hard to follow 2) There was a missing option The most popular proposal has been implemented. There are now two options which are mutually exclusive - these are (4-21) and (4-21a), and two...

forums.civfanatics.com

[Vote] - (6-20 & 6-21 & 6-22) Manufactory, Forge and Pantheon Proposals

Voting Notes 6-20 and 6-21 can be voted on independently, but the reason behind the changes is related to the balance effects of the 6-22 proposals, so you may or may not want to pass both / all three changes at once. 6-22, 6-22a, and 6-22b are mutually exclusive (thank goodness) Current...

forums.civfanatics.com

 

[Recursive]

Especially considering the fact that as azum4roll mentioned, the AI just simply ignores the limit and can have more than 14 Tenets (7 + 4 + 3).

This sounds like a bug and I'm considering vetoing this proposal as a result.

 

[Rekk]

Clearly the solution is to add more Tier 1 tenets so that you can't pick them all.

 

[CppMaster]

Because it suggests you haven't put enough care or thought into your proposal. Pick a value and confidently state that this value is correct.

Ok, so the way is to pretend to be confident when you are in fact considering multiple values, lol.

 

[N.Core]

You will need a sponsor who is willing to redo the UI on this menu.
You will need to decide what is to be done with the ideology splash. Dropping the art will be sad.
Personally, I would rather keep things as they are, or limit the AI to choosing 4 like players are. The limitation creates a choice, and forcing players to make choices is good.

Buttons can be made smaller to make space for the ideology splash image.

Also, if you want all 7 T2 tenets to be selectable, we need one more T1 tenet for each ideology. This proposal simply won't work without that.

 

[Anarcomu]

Ok, so the way is to pretend to be confident when you are in fact considering multiple values, lol.

The Congress Workshop Thread is here to test and help consider values before-hand

 

[CppMaster]

The Congress Workshop Thread is here to test and help consider values before-hand

Yeah, and lets say some will like option A and others option B, so no clear winner, but all agree that both options are better than the status quo. I could just pick A or B randomly just to fit the rules, but that's meh...