7-headed hydra - now what?

[Elandal]

As I've been doing well on Prince, I've started at Monarch. My games have mostly ended fairly soon as I've decided that I can't work my way up from the hole anymore (barbs seem to be a whole different issue on Monarch than on Prince - they tie me up big time). I'm guessing this game will go down the drain as I now have no clue as to how to continue... Reason is different than before though.

Warlords, Continents, Epic speed. Random leader rolled me Isabella. I generally don't like starting with Mysticism, as that makes me feel I absolutely have to get an early religion or the starting tech is wasted, and that again takes out some other options.

However, not only did I get Isabella. I got coastal start with two clams in my city first ring. And floodplains - lots of them (7 to be exact). Gold mine in the fat cross. And stone.
Clam is I believe the same as Spain on the Lake (2 food, 2 commerce), and with the floodplains and gold mine... Commerce. Serious bigtime commerce. And food. Enough to run as many priests as can be had. Or not exactly, I cotted most of them while farmed just two.

So, I look at the start and the only thing that came to my mind was "Hydra".

Start Meditation and pray while working the clam. Build workboat at the same time. My warrior start a tight spiral around Madrid. Having not played at Monarch much yet, I had no idea if this would work or not - at Prince it's doable. As can be guessed from the title... Yes, I got Buddhism.

Start Polytheism. Work clam and floodplain. I'll know very soon if I miss it - if some religious type has gone for Hinduism, it's just a few turns before he's ready. Met Mehmed, Mao, and Alex (please let Alex be far, very very far). Guess all the praying helped, and I ended up with Hinduism too.

Now comes the hard part: beeline to Monotheism? But the goldmine... So I decided to sidestep via Mining - Masonry would be a bit cheaper at that having both prereqs. Madrid grew to size 3 and I start training a worker. Would need gold soon. I wasn't working the absolute highest (current) commerce tiles at the moment, and was ready to stay at HinBuddhism if someone got Judaism - it'd be a LOT easier for me, a relief, knowing that I can drop the Hydra thoughts and try to resume normal game. But it was not to be: at BC2200 I discovered Monotheism and founded Judaism. Stonehenge ready soon unless someone else was working on it too, but I did have the stone.. I was thinking about wonders that could be, but well, I didn't want to get any non-prophet points to my GPP pool now, as I would be needing loads of prophets. Especially with the thoughts I was having...

Oracle. So I needed Agriculture and Pottery to keep my worker doing something. Then Priesthood and Writing, so if I got Oracle, I could get CoL. In the meantime, researching BW, Hunting, AH, Archery: I was already very very very afraid, with my capitol guarded by one warrior. At least my cultural borders were huge and I was on a peninsula of a kind, so my starting warrior was fogbusting most of the rest. BC970, Oracle, grab CoL. That's four in the bag. I already knew I can bulb Theo with GP, so it'd be five soon. BC640 to be exact.

Now, I'm quite certain any sane person would've stopped long ago, but... I had insane commerce going on here. I could research Philo you know.. And run loads of priests to get one GP soon too, so I'd need to research Monarchy, then I could bulb DR for Islam. Philo was researched in BC190, and finally DR bulbed in AD395.

Which leaves me into a very awkward position.. I've got one city. I'm at war with Alex. Happily, Mehmed and Mao are both hindu, while Alex is Jew. And I've been hemmed in on the peninsula by Mehmed, with Alex being somewhere behind that. He had one Archer through before Mehmed closed the borders, but at least I've got horses within my cultural borders, had them hooked up, and while one chariot died on the archer, my goldmine-defending archer cleaned up.

On my peninsula is one barb city that I could probably take (have to just build enough chariots - haven't checked what kind of defenders and how many there are). Although it's positioned one tile south of where I want it, so would have to raze and rebuild. Would get coastal city with pig, horse, and wheat in the fat cross, two plain hills for production.

Also I could fit one fishing village (with fish resource even) in the ice/tundra region.

There's copper too, and while I can't reasonably get it to within the fat cross of either of the two cities, it'll easily be within my cultural borders

But that's it. Three cities max. Horse, copper. Don't have IW yet.
Need Alphabet ASAP to see the tech situation - Alex has Alphabet, as well as IW, Math, and Sailing. Dunno what else. Either Mao and Mehmed don't have Alphabet or I can see Alex's tech situation only because of the war. I'm quite sure my religious techs could buy me some deals here
Obviously bureaucracy would be good as my capitol is a commerce monster. Then again, I could farm all the floodplains, build Globe Theater, and try to beg / borrow / trade health resources from Mehmed and Mao. I'm already trading my second clam for rice from Mao.

So, as I'm destined to go down in a blaze of glory, taking all the religions of the world with me, I'll try asking here first I'm guessing seven shrines would be total madness, but hey - I can run priests up the wazoo with Pacifism, so GPs will rain in like there were no tomorrow

I've never played OCC - that might have been good experience for this.

 

[DaveMcW]

Spread hinduism and convert the entire world. It will take a lot of missionaries, but there won't be anyone competing with you.

If you can convert everyone, diplomatic victory is possible.

 

[Elandal]

I've once achieved true diplo victory (in which Monty was alone on his own continent and had 18% of pop, I was second with 17.5%, Isabella third with 17%) running happy hindu union for Isabella's sake (except Mehmed, but he was always the black sheep of the continent what with voting for Monty and all). In that particular game, no war occurred. Not one. Not AI against me, nor AI against AI. Probably because Mehmed is sane and doesn't want to go to war with the Happy Hindus, and Monty never got to Astronomy..

So in this case, keep tight lid on the religions, convert everyone to Hindu (except I guess Alex who's a nut and I doubt I can do anything about him) and hope the other continent is somewhat sane and can be converted too?

In this case.. I won't have much pop. The land is taken and I'll have just a small sliver of it. So I have to go for UN to make sure I'm a candidate. Preferably convert the pop leader to some unruly confucianism or pretty much anything but hindu, while playing nice and sharing whatever I'm asked for to my hindu brothers?

 

[aelf]

You achieved a peaceful diplomatic victory, not a 'true' diplomatic victory. This long-lived concept of true or untrue diplomatic victory is rubbish except when trying to differentiate between a backdoor diplomatic win and any other kind of diplomatic win.

 

[drkodos]

You achieved a peaceful diplomatic victory, not a 'true' diplomatic victory. This long-lived concept of true or untrue diplomatic victory is rubbish except when trying to differentiate between a backdoor diplomatic win and any other kind of diplomatic win.

Interesting concept of "true" diplo victory. Not sure I gather all that you are meaning here. I understand back door, because that is the only way I ever get a diplo win (by beating on them until either they Vassal and forcibly vote for me or by conquesting and winning by sheer numbers of my empire).

What is the difference you mean by "true" diplomatic victory? Care to elaborate?


I mean, in a smokey room caucus, whoever is standing at the end, wins. Like the Iowa Caucuses (which will be tres interesting next go round).

 

[aelf]

Interesting concept of "true" diplo victory. Not sure I gather all that you are meaning here. I understand back door, because that is the only way I ever get a diplo win (by beating on them until either they Vassal and forcibly vote for me or by conquesting and winning by sheer numbers of my empire).

What is the difference you mean by "true" diplomatic victory? Care to elaborate?

I think a diplomatic victory that is partly through war and conquest is equally valid. If you conquer/vassalize 2 or 3 neighbours and win the rest of the votes by good diplomatic skills, that's just as true a diplomatic victory as a peaceful one.

It's only backdoor when all or close to all the votes are your own and there is no need to apply diplomatic skills.

 

[Elandal]

I said "true diplomatic victory" because all my diplomatic victories before had been diplomation: me and my vassalls dominate the population and so I can with my vassalls vote myself as the leader.
Also it's "true" in the sense that there were multiple candidates fairly close to eachother. Monty, me, and Isabella within one percentage point. I was guaranteed the election spot due to building UN, and there was a full percentage point between Monty and Isabella, so the margin was "safe" to some degree. "True" also in that Mehmed never fell into the hindu block but voted for Monty all the way into the end. True in that I didn't go kick Mehmed's sorry ass to transfer the population (and therefore votes). True in that I did some quite unusual (for myself) choices regarding trades, gifts, and civics. And the whole continent defensive pact - except Mehmed of course, and Washington failed to sign defensive pact with Cyrus iirc. So many ways it was "true" that I felt very good about it.
Definitelly peaceful. Maybe not all peaceful ones are "true" (as opposed to diplomation)? Or are all peaceful ones a subset of the diplomatiC ones (as opposed to -ON ones)? A bit hard to imagine gaining dominant population without warring, so I guess they are.

Now back to the game I asked suggestions for in this thread. I played it to the end, as the first Monarch game ever I've played to the end. First time ever I've done something as crazy as gone for 7-headed hydra... I did it step by step - first hope for two religions, then maybe get third, fourth if I get oracle and fifth too with the GP that follows. Sixth and seventh only because I could..

I continued by going for Alphabet next, followed by a few tech trades. First contact with the other continent was Mansa sailing my way - that was a good sign. Mansa later completed circumnavigation, a race to which I didn't participate. I did quite a lot of research along the tech trades, but the main goal was first Liberalism and Astronomy, then loaded galleon with missionaries. Oh yes - I did some missionary spamming on my home continent too to make sure Mehmed and Mao were solidly hindu. Alex thought Open Borders means "I send military units to within your borders without asking" (although he didn't really ask Mehmed either - Mehmed never had Open Borders with Alex after the early game) so I couldn't really do anything about his religious choices.. Alex was somewhat BudJewConfucian switching between them every now and then.

Mehmed also made some city placement mistakes so I ended with five, not three cities. You do NOT settle anywhere close to a 7-headed hydra.. The culture overwhelmed the two closest cities.

So, after contact with the other continent (and some map trades) I got a bit worried: Toku and Shaka. Toku was the second in pop (although this did swing a couple of times to Mao) and was bullying Mansa half the time. The problem of course was that I never got open borders to Toku, and hinduism spread to Japan via his buddy Shaka.

I also built the Hindu shrine, but never another shrine. Was running scientists and getting prophets - gah For as long as they could bulb something forward, I did that. Then settled them to Madrid. I guess that comes with the early prophet wonders.. I actually got Kremlin and Rock'n'Roll later as I had put two cities working on wonders lacking anything else I could think of to build. Gold was never an issue - my small empire didn't cost much to run, and the hindu world tithed well enough to the shrine.

Alex was the general punching bag. Everyone (except Toku) seemed fond of kicking him, so I joined the fray for mutual military struggles every now and then. This worried me a bit though, as Mao did take a couple of cities and was close second in population... Toku kept his pop lead with cities he took from Mansa.

Mehmed wasn't doing too well. I was surrounded by Mehmed completely until quite late when Alex finally broke through the buffer zone by grabbing two cities in the narrow spot. Happily Shaka came in, razed them, and Mehmed got to resettle there, keeping the buffer between me and Alex.. Did pay myself off the hook three times though: I never had a military that could've matched that of Alex, mainly due to lack of resources (no Iron is a bad thing).

Interestingly enough I seemed to be keeping tech lead almost the whole game. I traded left and right, gifted when asked, but somehow I was floating happily to the very end. Well no, I never got Rocketry - AI's are fond of it due to space race which I could never win now.

I did a lot of trading towards Fascism too, as Shaka was a bit shaky. Got Fascism finally when UN was built, but got Shaka's votes without Police State. Mao required switch to State Property though.

So, the final count in 1856 AD:
- Alex (110) votes for Toku
- Toku (162) for Toku
- me (71 votes baby!) for myself
- Mansa (76 - Toku bullied him more than I had estimated) for me
- Mao (155 - that was a close call, I wouldn't have won against him) for me
- Shaka (86 - what? No pop? So it was all the units and tech then) for me
- Mehmed (83) for me

That totals 471 out of 743 with 460 required. I could've gotten more pop but again forgot to start farming early enough. And honestly, three out of my five cities didn't have that many farmable tiles so maybe it wasn't a big difference.

That ended my first Monarch victory, with the most unusual starting strategy - if you call a "Umm... I can actually get more heads to the hydra.. and then more.. and now it's 7, what am I going to do with this?" a strategy

 

[Mr. Civtastic]

I generally don't like starting with Mysticism, as that makes me feel I absolutely have to get an early religion or the starting tech is wasted

Even skipping the religion, I wouldnt feel that it is wasted. Stonehenge is something I build (or try to build) in every game I play unless Im creative. Great early culture and well worth the cost...four monuments. Plus mysticism leads to two good wonders in polytheism, plus its on the path to the oracle. Ive found that getting a religion is more helpful on Monarch to help offset money problems, and Hinduism tends to be a dominant religion in most of my games because it comes around so early.

 

[Thomas G.]

Stonehenge is something I build (or try to build) in every game I play unless Im creative.

*cough* wonder addiction *cough*

 

[Landmonitor]

Can you post the starting save for this?

 

[Elandal]

Can you post the starting save for this?

I rarely have saves of my old games around, but I hadn't started a new one yet. And as you asked, I decided this will go to my small collection of interesting starts (this being the second that makes it there).

 

[Landmonitor]

Thanks Man

If you're interested, I'll let you know how my shot at this goes. Probably be giving it a whirl in late December (final exams are coming!).

 

[oyzar]

Hah. I dont have warlords but i wanted to try something like this out. I didnt get clams but i got like 2 silk and weath in the fatcross. I built a grand total of 2 warriors + starting warior 1 archer 2 caravels 3 workboats and 24 confunican missionaries over the course of the game(hey that was the first religion i got one for free and none of the other religions had managed to spread before i got it so i figured why not). It seems so easy to get loads of modifiers. At least when you manage to unite everyone against 1 comon enemy. In my game it too was alex though he was overseas. Who was pop leader jumped around greatly but it realy didnt matter as everyone was just waay more friendly against me than against everyone else. Here is the initial save and the final save if anyone feel like seeing the history more throughly or playing a version of it themselves. I didnt start on worker techs before after i got confucanism... I ended up trading massive amounts of gold per turn for happy and health resources as i was running a pretty dedicated specialist economy. Didnt get any other wonders than oracle and stonhenge and got beaten to liberalism because the AI just had way more raw teching power than me. Ofc having 5 ais mean you can trade to about any tech you want. Except for divine rights i didnt selftech anything of the straight mass media beeline. I traded to me hunting, mining, wheel, pottery, animal husbandry, bronze working, archery, ironworking without actually using any expencive techs (ie i still had COL and alphabet on all of the ais.) I think this can be quite viable as a starting strategy IF you have many AIs within reach. Heck you might just sling alphabet off oracle or not bother with oracle at all and just spam setlers. Your religions will be divided all over the place, but you will be way ahead in tech or at least equal with the ai just teching "useless" relgious techs. Just go workerless until you pop Alphabet off the oracle tthen trade just about all worker techs in one fell swoop. It wont be a hydra game but i think it might be quite efficient(i think i teched agriculture alone but that was the only one).

 

[Elandal]

Getting the hydra in this game is easy because there aren't religious contestants around. Knowing that, the development could've been done way more optimally. Also, I don't like micromanagement much, and thus I don't spend enough time working on it.
So should be fairly easy to get earlier victory from this start.

To get Alex and Toku to friendly would have made things a lot easier of course. If everybody loved me, I would get voted for regardless of the opposition I guess. But how do you get everybody to like you? There's always the worst enemy trading penalty to overcome if nothing else, and lacking mutual military struggles might require conflicting goals in pleasing the different AIs.

Had I stopped at three religions in capitol, I could've expanded of course. Still could've grabbed the rest of the religions for monopoly, but that's not a 7 headed hydra then

 

[oyzar]

I had hatty and asoka in my game. I must have been a couple turns ahead of her to all the techs. Work those coins! It didnt seem like mutch of a problem with the enemy stuff until i got optics and managed to find alexander for everyone to be angry at instead. Then i just had everyone decleare on him and since everyone was happy confucanists at the time it worked great.