[Vote] (8-29) Netherlands

[hokath]

Choose which components you want to see for the Netherlands!

---

(8-29) 4UC Netherlands

This is a thread for discussing the addition of 2 more unique components to the Dutch civilization.

forums.civfanatics.com

Proposer: @pineappledan
Sponsor(s): @Recursive

New Unit - Goedendag (replaces Pikeman):
available at Steel
100 Production Cost
20 CS
2 Movement
Anti-cavalry bonus
"Burger" (+33% CS if within 2 tiles of a friendly City)
The Dutch spelling police came for this name, see later in thread
"Goedendag!" ( +10% CS for all adjacent ally units)

New Building - Doelen (replaces Constabulary)
available at Banking
500 Production Cost
4 Maintenance
+3 Production
+5 Defense
1 Artist Specialist Slot
-1 unhappiness from Distress
25 spy defense in City, plus 1 per 2 Citizens in the city
50 Culture When you capture or identify a foreign Spy in this City, scaling with era
+1 Science, Culture, and Gold for each Global Monopoly you control

---

(8-29a) 4UC Netherlands: Dutch UA Rebalance

Base Proposal: https://forums.civfanatics.com/threads/8-29-4uc-netherlands.690043/ The Netherlands UA is extremely problematic. From the sheer amount of yields it can generate, to the semi-incompatibility with multiplayer, the thing is kinda scuffed. To be clear, in the early Renaissance the...

forums.civfanatics.com

Proposer: @hokath
Sponsor: @Recursive

UA Change: Luxury resources produce +1 and +1. Gain +4/+3 for every unique Luxury Resource you import or Export, scaling with Era. Can import duplicate Luxuries from Civilizations which count toward Monopolies.

New Unit - Goedendag from base proposal

New Building - Doelen from base proposal

 

[pineappledan]

With Hokath’s UA rework you can get 2 culture per turn by settling on a luxury and working another one on turn 0. I don’t think this is an actual improvement.

 

[Hinin]

With Hokath’s UA rework you can get 2 culture per turn by settling on a luxury and working another one on turn 0. I don’t think this is an actual improvement.

It is still problematic, but the scaling is much lesser. It is an acceptable temporary solution imo.

 

[hokath]

I don’t think this is an actual improvement.

You can't possibly be serious.

 

[Rekk]

You can't possibly be serious.

Every time we give turn 0 culture to a civilization, it outcompetes every one else by a large margin.

 

[hokath]

I can only say that I've playtested 2 standard games, and I did not find it overpowered.
In contrast the current UA is very clearly overpowered, and I found as much in 3 previous playtests. Each time I was several Policies ahead of lvl 6 AI in the early game and more in the late game (the culturally rich get culturally richer), and I think this should be obvious to anyone who plays them -- we have had several forum posts in other threads to this effect.

 

[azum4roll]

Netherlands got a buff after the last deal AI rework.
1. AI is way less likely to sell all but one of their luxuries as soon as possible, so they usually don't have to pay for the last copy.
2. Even though AI charges Netherlands more for luxuries and accepts less when buying theirs, they're not willing to charge Netherlands when taking their luxuries. In fact they still pay them at least 1GPT or something.
3. Netherlands AI knows its own UA and is always willing to trade luxuries for less benefit, which other AI happily accepts.

I think their UA can be nerfed to +2 and will be fine at that. The noob trap monopoly part can be removed. AI shouldn't have a minimum value for trading luxuries (should accept negative amounts!)

 

[azum4roll]

I assume this is what's going on in voters' mind:
1. Netherlands UA is OP
2. This proposal states to have nerfed it
3. Vote for it, problem will be solved!
...
4. Repeat 1?

My analysis of the proposed UA:
90% of the power now comes from the turn 0 culture, which is double the amount of old China's UA. Monopoly part is a trap and you share 2 with your trade partner for every unique import/export which is pretty useless. It's not enough to make you sell without waiting for the price to go high (when someone needs it for WLTKD/quest/happiness).

 

[Anarcomu]

One big part of Netherlands' current UA is that it scale with era.
Also, you never lack Happiness in the early game since you want to buy any copy of foreign luxury to get the UA's culture.
Although I like to play on Pangea, where all luxuries are available from the start. It's too late, but maybe change the bonus to only apply to improved luxury ?

 

[Gizmoman]

I am not saying the Netherlands UA didn't need to be nerfed, but the proposal just saying "4uc contents as suggested but change the UA" is a bit weird for a 4uc integration proposal.

 

[pineappledan]

It is certainly not a final solution to the Netherlands UA problem. It would be a change that we all know would have to be changed again.

 

[hokath]

I am not saying the Netherlands UA didn't need to be nerfed, but the proposal just saying "4uc contents as suggested but change the UA" is a bit weird for a 4uc integration proposal.

Yes it is, but we discussed at the very start of the session and decided these sorts of changes were allowed.

The reason to do this now is because it became clear to me that this UA is ludicrously overpowered.
Concerns about turn 0 culture are immaterial in comparison. I think you could double the culture and it still wouldn't be as broken (though surely it would be broken )

I can list reason this is not like previous incarnations (China).
The rest of the UA is weak -- as Azum says the monopoly part is a "noob trap" from which you get little use.
You have to settle on/next to a luxury which in 2nd, 3rd, etc. City is often subpar placement (especially if you are going Tradition and the placement is more important).
It's only likely +1 culture, not +2, in most cities.
It doesn't scale in any way past that.
Not all luxuries want to be worked turn 1 (e.g. ones with no food, or even worse ones with no food on hills)

It's too late, but maybe change the bonus to only apply to improved luxury ?

The problem is it requires new code. The Belief table has this flag, but the Trait one afaik doesn't.

It is certainly not a final solution to the Netherlands UA problem. It would be a change that we all know would have to be changed again.

Surely. But is this a reason not to perform this nerf? No it isn't. Given this is an improvement, which I think is beyond doubt (though I have tested it anyway), not voting for it on the grounds it will change again is illogical.

 

[pineappledan]

My reasoning is that I don’t have much interest in voting for obvious kludge. If a problem exists we should fix it. As in Actually fix it.

 

[Rekk]

as Azum says the monopoly part is a "noob trap" from which you get little use.

This is even worse.

 

[pineappledan]

The noob trap monopoly part can be removed.

The rest of the UA is weak -- as Azum says the monopoly part is a "noob trap" from which you get little use.

The UB’s bonus exists specifically to address this and add incentives so that part of the UA can get some proper use.

 

[hokath]

Yes this is true.But we have to understand that in the context of it being one of the additional components. It is part of the total 4UC budget and in some sense exists separately to the UA.

 

[pineappledan]

Ok.

My point remains that if you remove the part where duplicate resources contribute to monopolies from the UA then the UB bonus makes no sense. At that point we may as well give the yields per monopoly bonus to Indonesia/candi to replace the WLTKD bonus.

Wait actually that sounds great.

 

[hokath]

Yes if you change the UA you will have to change the Doelen and it does make sense on Indonesia.
It's a bit ironic isn't it that Indonesia and the Netherlands are currently the two "monopoly" civs.

I think we already talked about this but if you do the UA with the gold interest from accumulated gold, then the Doelen (as Constabulary) would need to block the gold steal spy mission.

 

[pineappledan]

It's a bit ironic isn't it that Indonesia and the Netherlands are currently the two "monopoly" civs

I have felt uncomfortable about that fact since vanilla days, because both Indonesia’s and Netherland’s UAs are kind of referencing the same thing: the spice trade from the East Indies. Except one of those cultures discovered/cultivated those resources and developed the trade network while the other stole it at gunpoint.

Yet another reason why the UA overhaul into something that augments something other than luxury resources appealed to me so much.

I think we already talked about this but if you do the UA with the gold interest from accumulated gold, then the Doelen (as Constabulary) would need to block the gold steal spy mission

Yes that was already part of the proposal. We proposed to halve the gold steal rather than block entirely

[DLL] - (8-NS) Netherlands UA change and Doelen adjustment

Original: https://forums.civfanatics.com/threads/8-29-4uc-netherlands.690043/ Wisselbanken Can go into debt at 2% :c5gold: interest. (ie. maintenance cost per turn for every -50:c5gold: gold stored) Receive 2% of your :c5gold: Gold reserves as :c5science: Science (ie. gain +1:c5science: per...

forums.civfanatics.com

 

[azum4roll]

The UB’s bonus exists specifically to address this and add incentives so that part of the UA can get some proper use.

The problem is you simply can't use it 99% of the time. You need to own one copy of the resource AND buy every single copy from the monopoly owner to trigger this. And why would they sell that last copy to you?

You go back to gaining monopolies the normal way. There's already no synergy.

The proposal that makes global monopoly possible for multiple players would solve this, but it didn't pass.