(8-41a) 4UC Sweden Rework - Great People Focus

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hokath

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TL;DR UBs redesigned to not promote/benefit from :c5citizen: Population growth, but instead :c5greatperson: Great People. This creates a link between Great General births and the economy. Tundra bias is added. Hakkapeliitta is Cuirassier. UA is changed to be smoother.

First the UA Change all the other counterproposals have adopted.
Units earn 2 XP and heal 10 HP whenever a Great Person is born.
Replaces bonus on Great General birth.
I had hoped we could do a little pick-and-mix, but counterproposals have to be complete so I'm importing this change.

Sweden has, to my mind, the worst UB. The Skola, which means Public School, replaces the Public School. It has 1 less maintenance and gives 3x more science per citizen than the Public School. It also gives culture per 2 citizens. This is just a stat stick. The only interaction you can have with it is to generate a large population. However as a warmonger you are probably going to have some puppet cities, some underdeveloped cities, etc. and generally happiness will be a limiting factor. So while Science is good for a warmonger, the way you get it is a sort of anti-synergy.

Of course there is also the fact that IRL Sweden is not exactly on the same level as India and China in terms of food bonuses.
There are more people in Greater London.

Now the new UB to be added is the Bastu. We had a long conversation on the discord with our resident Swedish Nationalist about how this is a great addition and definitely not Russian. However from a gameplay perspective it's kind of all over the place with the bonuses. The idea is clearly food and birth yields to get more pop so there is this interaction with the Skola. But Food on Golden Age? Strange angle. Lakes and Tundra give science... ok Sweden has lakes and "tundra" IRL, but in-game even lake-friendly map types are quite random for number of take tiles and Sweden has no Tundra bias. It's not a good idea to have UB power like this, it will lead to too much variance. Finally you now you have 5 different bonuses on this building; too much for me, especially with it being Classical Era.

Spoiler Current UBs proposed :

UB1 - Skola (replaces Public School):
Available at Scientific Theory
800 :c5production: Production Cost
4 :c5gold: Gold maintenance

+3 :c5science:
+3 :c5science: Science and +1 :c5culture: Culture for every 2 :c5citizen: Citizens in the City.
-1 :c5unhappy: Unhappiness from :c5science: Illiteracy.

UB2 - Bastu (replaces Baths):
Available at Metal Casting
200 :c5production: Production Cost
1:c5gold: Gold maintenance

no terrain requirements

+3 :c5culture: Culture and +1 :c5food: Food

+1 :c5culture: Culture and +1 :c5gold: Gold to Temple, Amphitheater and Garden
+10% :c5culture: Culture and +10% :c5food: Food during :c5goldenage: Golden Age
+1 :c5science: Science to Lakes
+1 :c5science: Science for every 2 worked Tundra tiles
15% of :c5science: Science output in city as an instant boost to :c5science: Science and 15% of :c5culture: Culture output in city as an instant boost to :c5culture: Culture whenever a citizen is born


I think I would much prefer UBs that integrate more with the UA and warmonger playstyle, yet still keeping the science/culture economic yields from a developed nation -- in comparison to yields on e.g. pillage, conquer, or kill that other warmongers tend to get.

The idea is to have yields for consuming Great People. The currently existing examples are Wonders (Pyramids and University of Sankore) so putting this mechanic on a UB is already unique. The incentive to fight and get Great Generals now synergises when you consume them for Citadels, creating a link between the UBs and the UA. We also
Add a Tundra Bias
to (a) allow the Bastu tile bonus to be more reliable, (b) give you a more defensible start (no one starts at a more extreme latitude) and (c) to be more true to real life (bit weird when Sweden starts in a desert imo)

First the Bastu. This comes earliest and composes most of the Civs Unique elements for a while since it's a late boomer with the other UCs. Bold to highlight changes from the previous draft (in the spoiler).
UB2 - Bastu (replaces Baths):
Available at Metal Casting
200 :c5production: Production Cost
1:c5gold: Gold maintenance
no terrain requirements


+3 :c5culture: Culture and +3 :c5food: Food
+1 :c5culture: Culture and +1 :c5gold: Gold to Temple, Amphitheater and Garden
+10% :c5culture: Culture and +10% :c5food: Food during :c5goldenage: Golden Age
+1 :c5science: Science to Lakes
+1 :c5science: Science for every 2 worked Tundra tiles
15% of :c5science: Science output in city as an instant boost to :c5science: Science and 15% of :c5culture: Culture output in city as an instant boost to :c5culture: Culture whenever a citizen is born
+8 :c5culture: Culture when expending a :c5greatperson: Great Person, scaling with Era


The +3 food helps you run your early specialist slot to get the ball rolling.
The Tundra bias ensures the bonus the tile bonus will reliably get used.
The culture is the key point. Is the value correct? The general value for a Wonder is +50, so this equals at 5 cities. Of course the UB does other things, but I could see the number being higher. Note since it's been our favourite topic recently: the culture will (presumably?) contribute to border expansion for your authority pick.

Second the Skola replacement. I want to take inspiration from the old UA and reference the strong soft-power of the Swedish Academy's Nobel Prize. As one of a number of components, I feel this inclusion is fine -- the civ does not `revolve around Alfred Nobel' as many people don't like in other iterations of Sweden. Still, as a scientist I can say the influence of the Prize is not to be understated to Swedish arts, science, and soft power in general. So bold as changes from the base building,
UB1 (UNW) - Nobel Committee (replaces Foreign Bureau):
Available at Dynamite (2 tiers before Radio)
Requires the Imperial College in the City


+5 :c5culture:, +5 :c5science:
+50 :c5gold: Gold when expending a :c5greatperson: Great Person, scaling with Era, and and 10 :c5influence: Influence with all :c5citystate: City-States you have met
+2 :c5science: to all :greatwork: Great Works
+3 :c5culture: to every Academy Improvement in the Empire
+3 :c5culture: and +2 :c5science: to all Public Schools in the Empire

Edit: It was pointed out all UNW have a global building buff -- it's like Skola never left :p

+1 Paper.
+20% :c5production: Production of Diplomatic Units in this City.
All Diplomatic Units receive the Diplomatic Immunity Promotion.
The [ICON_PRODUCTION] Production Cost and [ICON_CITIZEN] Population Requirements increase based on the number of Cities you own.

Coming earlier and not needing a Wire Service (1 tier later) means this comes closer to where the Skola was, and doesn't require you to invest in diplomatic infrastructure if you don't want to, yet still gets you a base amount of influence with city states (UN is 25 influence, so this is lower) to get you yields. The gold boost is also meant to be victory-condition agnostic, giving you a flexible boost you can use to purchase military or diplomats, invest in buildings, etc. The bonuses to Great Works and Academies reward your great person production, but also for warmongering and taking them from your enemies.

Here is my attempt at the icon,
1718917060364.png

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Since all proposals must be complete, I cannot rely on someone else to fix the obvious Hakkapeliitta problem -- namely that they get a bonus from kills, but the Carolean also gets a bonus from kills. Since they are contemporary units this creates a competition for the killing blow which is unfun.
Spoiler base proposal :

UM - Hakkapeliitta (replaces Lancer):
available at Metallurgy
350 :c5production: Production Cost

requires Horses
37 :c5strength: CS
5:c5moves: Movement
No Movement to Pillage
+1 Sight
Hakkaa Päälle!
(+20% vs wounded Units, heals 30 HP from killing Units)

Following @Flamingcheesepie we will reimagine the unit as a Cuirassier replacement that supports the Carolean.

UM - Hakkapeliitta (replaces Cuirassier):
available at Metallurgy
350 :c5production: Production Cost

requires Horses
28 (+1) :c5strength: CS, 24 (+2) :c5rangedstrength: RCS
5:c5moves: Movement
Skirmisher Doctrine
Can move after attacking
[The 4 skirmisher line penalties]
No Movement to Pillage
+1 Sight
Hakkaa Päälle!
(+25% CS attacking units at full health)

The idea is you find the enemy with your improved sight and then launch a full attack softening each one up. Then the Caroleans come in, maybe even on the next turn after another wave, and mass AoE them down with their on-kill effect. Comments on this welcome.
 
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If Bastu has a Tundra bonus, then Sweden should have a Tundra Bias. If it has a Forest bonus, then it should have a Forest Bias. It's as simple as that.

Note that Forest/Jungle are treated the same everywhere, and Sweden should be no exception.

Nobel Committee should have a better icon (as a drawing not modified photograph), in line with the rest of VP's buildings.
 
I am totally happy to swap forests to tundra and give the tundra bias.
I was trying not to make too many changes in one go.
However I agree with the other side of the argument -- as you put it -- that now they should have a forest bias.

Amending OP now.
 
Well at this point it feels like there’s a big deviation from the warmongering schtick of Gustavus himself. Feels like his UA could change to give some room to science if it’s gonna be attached to his buildings
 
Definitely prefer this over the current Sweden, not a fan of obligate warmongers (though current Sweden does at least have some advantage towards a different victory condition)
Perhaps consider making the culture to Academies also apply to Manufactories and Customs Houses, but lower the value to 2

Well at this point it feels like there’s a big deviation from the warmongering schtick of Gustavus himself. Feels like his UA could change to give some room to science if it’s gonna be attached to his buildings
Neither of the UBs in the current kit provide any incentive or bonus to war
 
It's one of the two pure stat stick UBs left in the game (the other being Stele). I'd hate to see it changed.

Not every unique component needs triggers. Sometimes deviating from your usual tech path (in this case going for the upper side as a warmonger) is interesting enough.
 
Perhaps consider making the culture to Academies also apply to Manufactories and Customs Houses, but lower the value to 2
I considered it, but found it hard to justify in terms of theme. Gameplay wise it would be slightly preferable, agree. But not so much to justify imo.

It's one of the two pure stat stick UBs left in the game (the other being Stele). I'd hate to see it changed.
Stele has a golden age interaction, isn't it?
I take the point that it incentivizes an alternate pathing, but as I discussed the effect doesn't make sense. I considered a Skola with GG points and no Bastu but it wasn't well reviewed.
 
Stele has a golden age interaction, isn't it?
It's +25% faith during golden age. You're never not going to have the building but still have 4+ faith per turn during a golden age, so that might as well be in the UA.
 
Why not, instead of having the UA reward GG births exclusively, have it reward all GP births with much smaller amounts of heal and xp ? That way, it provides flexibility to the Swedish kit and ties with the other GP birth bonuses hokath proposes.

Something like : All units gain +5 xp and heal 20 hp whenever a new GP is born.

We can keep the superior GG part.
 
+5 XP is way too much if it triggers on every GP. Unlike Great Generals, city-generated GPs spawn much more frequently in the late game. Up to 1 per turn if you have Civilized Jewelers in a wide kingdom.
 
+5 XP is way too much if it triggers on every GP. Unlike Great Generals, city-generated GPs spawn much more frequently in the late game. Up to 1 per turn if you have Civilized Jewelers in a wide kingdom.
2 or 3 then ?
 
maybe split the base effect between the 2? Birth of General gives +15xp to all units, birth of any other GP heals them to full/heals for X HP
 
Why not, instead of having the UA reward GG births exclusively, have it reward all GP births with much smaller amounts of heal and xp ?
Interesting idea. On the one hand it will remove some annoying moments where a GG randomly spawns when you are attacking Sweden and messes you up. It could probably also be stronger. On the other hand you will lose that nice agency of being able to time/faith buy a GG for a mega-turn.

If you want to also counterpropose this one, it can live alongside.
 
On the other hand you will lose that nice agency of being able to time/faith buy a GG for a mega-turn.
I've never liked this anyway. Too gamey.
 
I would guess 2XP and 10 HP heal would be appropriate if it were spread to all GPs.
 
If the GGeneral thing we’re to go away, I think it would be good to reference the alottment system. That seems appropriate.
The UA from this Karl XII mod is pretty spicy. Would be a cool idea to implement as a UNW I think.

I’m not really on board with the Nobel Committee wonder idea. I’m especially not a fan of the repetitive bonuses. Heal and XP onGP birth AND global influence on GP expend AND 2 separate yields on GP expend. The global heal/XP is the most interesting/unique version of this bonus and otherwise I consider the rest of these to be: :deadhorse:
 
Have added a Hakkapeliitta rework to address the on-kill competition design problem.
Copied for your convenience

UM - Hakkapeliitta (replaces Cuirassier):
available at Metallurgy
350 :c5production: Production Cost

requires Horses
28 (+1) :c5strength: CS, 24 (+2) :c5rangedstrength: RCS
5:c5moves: Movement
Skirmisher Doctrine
Can move after attacking
[The 4 skirmisher line penalties]
No Movement to Pillage
+1 Sight
Hakkaa Päälle!
(+25% CS attacking units at full health)

The idea is you find the enemy with your improved sight and then launch a full attack softening each one up. Then the Caroleans come in, maybe even on the next turn after another wave, and mass AoE them down with their on-kill effect. Comments on this welcome.
 
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Comanche Riders: stop stealing our abilities!

Yes it's already on the current Hakkapeliitta, but that isn't a skirmisher.
 
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