8 Civs. Is that enough? More to come?

[cooldude1128]

Despite all the videos and interviews out there, it seems elusive for some to grasp that BE is actually a "roll your own" faction game, and not just Civ V in a spacesuit. I guess they will have to learn by playing the game, assuming they even buy it.

No kidding. I look around, and everywhere people are complaining at least a little about the number of available seeding factions. They never seem to take into account the numerous other benefits that you can pick.

 

[jaldaen]

I think 8 sponsors to start with is just fine considering all the additional options when starting a game. Also, most of the countries seem to be covered by the current sponsors with two major exceptions:

The countries around the North Sea (UK, Nordic countries, Germany) and the Middle East. Now, maybe these countries suffered the most from the Great Mistake and so that's why they aren't in the game. However, they also might be saving these two for DLC purposes only time will tell.

However, even though I'm happy with the 8 sponsors we have, I am highly tempted to make a mod to add a North Sea Alliance and Arabian League to the game since I think they'd be fun to play.

The North Sea Alliance would probably have some kind of naval bonus. Maybe +10% Strength to naval units and +1 movement and vision for embarked units. This would fit a niche in the game that currently isn't being filled (i.e. a naval power) and seems on par with the other sponsors, although I'd like to see some of the late game naval units to know if the bonus Strength is right compared to what you get for Brasilia.

The Arabian League would perhaps focus on energy since that seems appropriate for a sponsor from an energy-rich area of the world. Maybe the UA could reduce the energy cost of purchasing in all cities by 10%, although I'd need to play the game to know if that is enough of a bonus, especially when compared to Polystralia.

I'd love to also come up with an exploration focused sponsor, but I can't think of any other regions that are missing from current sponsors... although I could see a "fictional" Antarctic Consortium. Their UA might be something like: All land military units have +1 sight and Explorers gain +100% Strength against alien units. This would allow their explorers to survive limited engagements with aliens rather than dying to them like I've seen in so many playthroughs.

Anyway, those are my thoughts about possible sponsors.

Best Wishes,
Jaldaen

 

[Tomice]

No kidding. I look around, and everywhere people are complaining at least a little about the number of available seeding factions. They never seem to take into account the numerous other benefits that you can pick.

The problem I have is more about not being able to have more than 8 civs on the map. I always prepared large maps with 10, maybe even 12 civs in Civ5. But it's ok, I made my peace with the contemporary DLC policy.

 

[gunnergoz]

(snip)

I'd love to also come up with an exploration focused sponsor, but I can't think of any other regions that are missing from current sponsors... although I could see a "fictional" Antarctic Consortium. Their UA might be something like: All land military units have +1 sight and Explorers gain +100% Strength against alien units. This would allow their explorers to survive limited engagements with aliens rather than dying to them like I've seen in so many playthroughs.

Anyway, those are my thoughts about possible sponsors.

Best Wishes,
Jaldaen

I really like the exploration specialist sponsor idea and perks but would substitute say, 2 exploration modules from the start rather than the +100% combat strength. Or alternately a land speed of 3 instead of more modules.

 

[Gort]

I guess that all the other choices you make during the start would actually make adding extra sponsor harder, since you have to make sure that whatever sponsor ability you add doesn't stack with the other bonuses you can choose to the point of making them overpowered.

 

[jaldaen]

gunnergoz,

I thought about an extra exploration module. It would be a nice perk, but it's also one other sponsors can pick up by choosing to get a level in Supremacy and from what I can tell the Sponsor benefits tend to be something only the sponsor can get.

The idea of an increased land speed for Scouts, however, is something unique and I could see that being useful for surviving (by running away from aliens), which is really what I'd like to mimic. Perhaps I'll go with that bonus instead and pair it with the extra vision for land units.

Thanks for your thoughts!
jaldaen

 

[gunnergoz]

We need to keep pumping out valid critiques and reasonable (and imaginative) alternatives and perhaps Firaxis will notice them in time to incorporate them upon release. I would think we are a week or two away from them locking down the code for release.

 

[Shafi-is-back]

I know there are so many variables and not just the factions to choose from but still i could definitely do with a few more. (I would like to see 12-15 in the game.)

Two things kept me playing the previous siv games after it got a bit old,

(1) The want to win at a higher difficulty level
(2) The want to win with civ's i had never won with before

With only 8 fadctions in the game i wonder how that will pan out for me ...

 

[gunnergoz]

I know there are so many variables and not just the factions to choose from but still i could definitely do with a few more. (I would like to see 12-15 in the game.)

Two things kept me playing the previous siv games after it got a bit old,

(1) The want to win at a higher difficulty level
(2) The want to win with civ's i had never won with before

With only 8 fadctions in the game i wonder how that will pan out for me ...

Don't think of it as only 8 factions, think of it as 8 sponsors X 5 Colonists X 5 Spaceships X 5 Cargos. What's that equal to? 1000 Factions at least. You get to define your own faction, starting with those 4 ingredients. Throw in Affinities and you have even more options to customize your faction once you are planetside.

Try to think outside the box because this is not your old Civilization game in many, many ways.

 

[Monado]

Shafi did mention the other variables quickly Gunnergoz.

To me, after having so many different unique leader personalities in Civ V, I worry that versing the same 8 AI will become repetitive (especially since chances are you will be seeing the same leaders many games in a row).

While I am very excited to try the new BE faction UA + mix spaceship variable set up, I don't think these underlying, non-unique, mechanics make up for the lack of different leader personalities.

After versing Fielding of the ARC four games in a row, will I really care if she chose X or X colonist, or would I rather have had the chance to verse a different programmed AI? I'm looking forward to finding out, but really hoping for DLC as I don't think 8 personalities will be enough.

 

[Shafi-is-back]

To add to the above,

1) I dont think in reality you are gonna feel like its a 1000 different factions ... i mean this assumes that its a totally different game expirience if you select Retrogade thrusters instead of continental scanners ... which is not the case, i think you will agree.

2) I'm excited about this variability at the start dont get me wrong BUT it does not make up for unique and different civs in the game. In civ IV and ciV we have been spoiled with so many options, i would like at least 4 more factions to start with.

 

[gunnergoz]

Well, I guess we'll have to agree to disagree. I find this approach stimulating and the lack of historical baggage refreshing.

These 8 characters do have personalities and traits apart from the random Affinities they will choose - we know that much. I'm content to play them for now. Wanting more personalities and characters to lead the different Sponsors is a fair request and many have made it. Most likely we'll see DLC to add variety in the leader and faction choices because of such sentiments.

The question remains whether 8 sides per game, no matter how they are composed, even on the Massive maps, is enough. That too is worth debating.

My sense is that BE's QA process checked out the option of more factions than 8 on larger maps and decided it was unworkable for some reason. We have been spoiled by Civ V games with many, many factions and characters facing us so we are conditioned to think of that as normal. Small wonder then that only 8 factions in BE seems stingy.

I did notice that in one of the interviews of late (or perhaps it was a video that a BE designer commented upon, again please forgive my inexact memory) they were saying that BE games will be shorter than we are used to from previous Civ experience. That makes sense because the units seem far more lethal, the spread of cities comes quicker, the maps seem very resource rich compared to previous Civ titles and the tech web encourages innovative play styles that reward the player who is clever enough to reach higher Affinity levels with speed and efficiency, thus bringing more firepower to bear on the battlefield. Also, the Covert Ops system can undercut your enemies if skillfully used. Finally, the alternate Victory types (especially the Contact Victory) give opportunities to bring the game to an earlier end if one is resourceful enough (and lucky) to find the requisite technologies ASAP.

For these reasons I personally am content to live with 8 factions for now, but I will welcome more via DLC and mods with open arms.

 

[Soffacet]

1) I dont think in reality you are gonna feel like its a 1000 different factions ... i mean this assumes that its a totally different game expirience if you select Retrogade thrusters instead of continental scanners ... which is not the case, i think you will agree.

2) I'm excited about this variability at the start dont get me wrong BUT it does not make up for unique and different civs in the game. In civ IV and ciV we have been spoiled with so many options, i would like at least 4 more factions to start with.

The idea of the "totally different game experience" on a per civ basis in previous civ games is vastly overstated. For example in CiV, there is a standard, solid, vanilla style (3-city Tradition --> NC --> 4-6 cities) that any civ (besides Venice) could (and probably should) use. Certain civs had certain perks that made them faster at it than others, but you almost never drastically altered your plan was just because of 15% stronger infantry or 50% longer GAs or whatever.

Civ bonuses are initially incredibly important because it's literally all you have. But they eventually fade to insignificance compared to the massive pile of policies and technologies that you unlock as the game goes on. So from that perspective, to me there are clearly 8 sponsors * 5 colonists * 5 ships * 5 cargo = 1000 civs.

 

[HecatesLover]

I really only count the sponsors and colonists on the list so 40. The cargo are basically the equivalent of a single building or unit built and the ships are a bit of free exploration. While the cargo and ships are definitely useful they qualify as conveniences not power enhancements.

But 40 doesn't really feel right either. Each affinity offers different styles of resource management and prioritization. So multiply another 3 there to 120. Then of course there is that every building has you picking different bonuses. We could add a 2 multiplier for every building since in Civ5 most of the civ unique buildings were just a small bonus tacked on to an existing building. Also there are some that are game changing. Units heal 5 more or the building gives +1 energy and science. Extra trade route. Traders won't be attacked by aliens OR longer reaching fences.

It is almost like we get to pick and choose from all the different Civ bonuses as we play the game effectively making the number of available "Civs" to us extraordinarily large.

 

[rexnerdorum]

Perhaps we can agree to "Fewer Civs, More Choices".

 

[Monado]

Perhaps we can agree to "Fewer Civs, More Choices".

Nope, could not agree to that

As I said earlier, I'de prefer more unique AI opponent personalities. Montezuma is Montezuma is Montezuma, no matter which Ideology he chooses. Same will go for the 8 BE leaders and whatever spaceship variable/affinity they choose.

Today in Pete's Brasilia twitch stream, did you hear his reaction when the Russian Faction (still need to memorize the new names) landed near him? He was not to happy because that leader (Kozlov?) is always an expansive pain. Unique personalities like this are what make AI opponents fun to play against to me, much more so than what cargo they put on their ship.

 

[gunnergoz]

Other than for fancy affinity-related leader animations, modding and adding factions and leaders with varied personalities & preferences should be pretty routine for our fine community of Civ modders? It was in Civ V and I assume it will be for BE too.

Am I right or over-simplifying what it would entail?

I'm willing to live with non-animated leader figures if the end result is more variety without waiting for DLC's.

The 8 factions and leaders that start the game are fine for now, as I said before, but I'm beginning to be swayed by the arguments that more are needed to keep BE from feeling stale after a few weeks of intense play.

 

[Shafi-is-back]

Dont get me wrong guys, i think this game should have more replayability due to the way its designed and not due to the seeding options itself, ( i actually think those are minor) but primarily due to the Tech web instead of tech tree and also the more balanced virtue tree + ofc as someone pointed out the building quests that let you customise buildings ...

Still i would like more variety in the available base civs factions, i'm sure having 2 more factions wouldnt have taken that much more effort and they could sell me another 6 in DLC's

 

[Seek]

Still i would like more variety in the available base civs factions, i'm sure having 2 more factions wouldnt have taken that much more effort and they could sell me another 6 in DLC's

I can't speak for effort, but I'm pretty sure voice actors and animations are some of the bigger expenses, all things considered.

 

[gunnergoz]

I can't speak for effort, but I'm pretty sure voice actors and animations are some of the bigger expenses, all things considered.

Yeah, you know those flighty artistic types are primadonnas and won't work overtime without big OT compensation to go with it...unlike programmers.