[DLL] (8-NS) 4UC Babylon - Changed UA, Diqugallu and Gate of Ishtar

[Hinin]

Current : See pineappledan's proposal for 4UC Babylon here.

Proposal :

- Change the UA to the following

UA - Ingenuity

Can open Policy trees earlier (as if you had six more Policies than normal) and can unlock Policies in any order (no need to follow the order established within a Policy tree). Investing Gold in Buildings reduces their Production cost by an additionnal 15%.

- Wall of Babylon replaced by the Diqugallu.

UGP - Diqugallu => art by janboruta from this mod ; I already have a 3d model ready, and I can write the civilopedia article

Replaces the Great General, Great Scientist and Great Diplomat

Leadership
Military Tradition
Master Diplomat

3 MP / 2 Vision

Can be expended to construct a Citadel, an Academy or an Embassy, to provide a burst of Science or to lead a Diplomatic Mission.

UNW - Abulmahhu Assuritu / Gate of Ishtar (replaces Heroic Epic) => provides the 3d unique version of the Wall of Babylon in the City ; both names are fine by me

Unlocked at Masonry (instead of Iron Working)
Requires Walls in the City (instead of Barracks)
60 Production cost (scaling with number of Cities) / No Population requirement
Spawn 1 free Diqugallu when completed (instead of a Great Writer)

+5 CS to the City
+ 4 Culture (instead of +1)

10% of Unit purchases and Building investments using Gold anywhere on empire are converted to Science and Food in this City
25 Culture on Citizen Birth, scaling with Era

All Land Units created by this City receive the "Morale" promotion
+10% Supply from Population in this City

2 GWWriting slot (+3 GGeneral points per turn when filled with GWWriting from the same Civilization)

1 Great Scientist slot

- Both unique military units are kept as proposed by pineappledan.

Rationale : I don't know about you, but the free Scientist at Writing and the +50% generation towards GScientists of the current UA are incredibly boring to me. It is flat and difficult to handle in any other way than the intended way : work some scientists and spawn GScientists faster than everyone else. Yeah... Also, the idea of "wide GScientist generation" doesn't even hold much longer than for a few births, afterwards you still need to specialize cities.

The Diqugallu I propose doesn't bring new types of effects, but what it provides is versatility, which is itself very powerful. With it, you can use your combat experience to gain science or diplomatic advantages, your scientists to gain a military edge or gain influence or your civil servants for technologies etc. The combinations are plural, as can be the gameplans to use this unit in varied ways.

This, in addition to the Gate of Ishtar, gives Babylon gains new ways to express itself instead of being stuck as the "early science guy".

As always, thanks for reading.

Edit 1 : Made the Diqugallu replace the Wall of Babylon and be a GEngineer replacement instead of a GGeneral. Changed Ua based on pineappledan's proposal.

Edit 2 : Rolled back on some elements. Made the Diqugallu a GGeneral / GScientist / GDiplomat replacement (they were high judges within the civilization with the most famous law text after all).

Edit 3 : Added the Abulmahhu Assuritu (Gate of Ishtar), a fusion between the Wall of Babylon and the E-temenanki.

Edit 4 : Exchanged the bulb boost of the UA for a bonus that allows to open Policy trees earlier and remove the need to follow policy tree order.

 

[ScarletArkyning]

My only concern is that if all three are merged, then they’ll quickly accelerate the required amounts of great person points to absurd amounts. You’ll get tons in the early game, but then quickly spiral off in the mid game.

 

[TameFroggy]

Does planting any GPTI boost all bulb effects? e.g. if you make a citadel, will the GS's science and GM's gold + WLTKD be boosted?

My only concern is that if all three are merged, then they’ll quickly accelerate the required amounts of great person points to absurd amounts. You’ll get tons in the early game, but then quickly spiral off in the mid game.

I believe all 3 counters will still scale normally, but any resulting GPs are replaced

 

[Rekk]

The Diqugallu is a UU masquerading as a UA to get past the limit.

 

[hokath]

Rekk's right, Merchant of Venice, Suffet, Induna, etc. are all considered to be a UU.

Even if it weren't this cannot be allowed if only because you would be able to create an absolutely absurd number of citadels! Walls of Babylon indeed!

 

[pineappledan]

Does planting any GPTI boost all bulb effects? e.g. if you make a citadel, will the GS's science and GM's gold + WLTKD be boosted?

As i understand it, the GP scaling would still be tied to the specific tile. So the Diqugallu would only increase science bulbs if it planted an academy for instance.

I'm wondering why GEngineer isn't replaced?

I would kind of prefer if this Diqugallu guy just replaced the WoB; I have never liked that building anyways.

What about this?
Ingenuity
Yields and Happiness from expending Great People are increased by 50% (a 1.5x multiplier after all other multipliers from GPTI and GW are calculated)
Investing Gold in Buildings reduces their Production cost by an additional 15%.

and then the Diqugallu replaces the WoB as a component slot.

 

[Legen]

I don't know about you, but the free Scientist at Writing and the +50% generation towards GScientists of the current UA are incredibly boring to me. It is flat and difficult to handle in any other way than the intended way : work some scientists and spawn GScientists faster than everyone else. Yeah...

I actually like it, it changes a lot how you play:

Babylon is an unique case as a civ that generates more Great People by going Wide, than by staying Tall. And that +50% in the UA is a major reason why they can do it.

 

[Hinin]

Edit 1 : Made the Diqugallu replace the Wall of Babylon and be a GEngineer replacement instead of a GGeneral. Changed Ua based on pineappledan's proposal.

 

[Legen]

You need to rewrite your entire rationale. For instance, it still mentions having the Walls of Babylon:

The civ keeps a Science focus (the Walls of Babylon are still there)

And Great Generals:

gives the civ an unexpected militaristic aspect, especially with all the Supply the unit can provide.

On other points, one issue I have with the new UA is that the +50% yields/happiness comes very late, as the general play is to save bulbing for the late game. That part of the UA will be niche for the majority of the game, and not really better than what the Walls of Babylon already do for Great Scientists.

If you're going to replace a component for the new UU, it makes more sense to replace one of the other UUs, instead of a UB. Babylon has 2 late Ancient Era UUs with 4UC, which is overkill on a non-militaristic civ, and can't always get the most of both due to production constraints. Moreover, the Walls of Babylon provides a way to generate more Great People, which you'll want to get proper use of both your proposed UU and UA.

The other issue is that Babylon stops being a dedicated Science civ with these changes and becomes a generalist civ instead, which is a major shift in the civ's identity. And one that mainly asks for a heavy focus on Food, which the civ has little of in its kit. Your proposal would make more sense on a civ like China, India or Iroquois.

 

[Hinin]

You need to rewrite your entire rationale. For instance, it still mentions having the Walls of Babylon:

Sorry, I do not have the time during work weeks to change my rationale whenever I do edits. Half of the counterproposals do not bother with respecting the rules about describing the whole kit or putting relevant rationale or description of the current / pineappledan's 4UC version anyway (and it seems I'm the only one people bother about this).

Edit 2 : Rolled back on some elements. Made the Diqugallu a GGeneral / GScientist / GDiplomat replacement (they were high judges within the civilization with the most famous law text after all). This allows the civ to have a combat GP, a normal specialist GP and an exotic specialist GP rolled into one.

 

[Shah_Afshar]

Is it possible to retain the unique wall art display on Babylonian Cities despite getting rid of it as a UB ?

 

[Hinin]

Edit 3 : Added the Abulmahhu Assuritu (Gate of Ishtar), a fusion between the Wall of Babylon and the E-temenanki.

 

[ScarletArkyning]

The bulbing is something I almost never do anyway. Definitely rework that. It makes it no more intuitive than the 50% great scientist bonus.

 

[Hinin]

The bulbing is something I almost never do anyway. Definitely rework that. It makes it no more intuitive than the 50% great scientist bonus.

You're right. It was a bandaid solution for me in order to get the proposal ready anyway.

Edit 4 : Exchanged the bulb boost of the UA for a bonus that allows to open Policy trees earlier and remove the need to follow policy tree order.

 

[hokath]

Wait, what?
You get 6 policy tree openers of your choice? Am I reading this wrong?
So 6 sets of bonuses (?!?! Tradition opener, Progress opener, Authority opener turn 1 what?) and then I can pick anything as my first policy, even stuff that should be locked behind stuff like +2 and +1 per mine/lumbermill/camp or whatever that one in Industry is?

 

[azum4roll]

I think it just means you can pick the Artistry opener as your first policy, and then any Artistry policy as your second.

 

[hokath]

Oh I see "as if you had 6 policies" meaning the medieval trees are available. I get it

 

[ScarletArkyning]

Oooh yeah I like this new style waaaay more. Gives Babylon ABSURD flexibility through the game. I assume this doesn’t count ideology because to boot that up in late renaissance to early industrial would be op.

 

[Rekk]

Still, a medieval tree and two industrial trees seems really strong.

 

[Hinin]

Still, a medieval tree and two industrial trees seems really strong.

At the same time, the only source of bonus culture for Babylon would be its UNW which gives you some on Citizen birth, and that's it. Plus, the civ has much less frontloaded economic bonus than many other civs. Finally, getting Medieval Policies too soon can really hinder you (no source of early culture and early game you need flat bonuses more than scaling ones).

Oooh yeah I like this new style waaaay more. Gives Babylon ABSURD flexibility through the game. I assume this doesn’t count ideology because to boot that up in late renaissance to early industrial would be op.

Indeed, it's about Policy trees and Policies, not about Ideologies and Tenets. We could reformulate this by saying "Can unlock Policies Trees two Eras earlier and can choose Policies in any order."

I think it just means you can pick the Artistry opener as your first policy, and then any Artistry policy as your second.

Exactly.