[DLL] (8-NS) Greece: Parthenon nerf

[Rosete]

Base proposal:

[DLL] - (8-18) 4UC Greece

This is a thread for discussing the addition of 2 more unique components to the Greek civilization.

forums.civfanatics.com

Current Parthenon 4UC:
UW - Parthenon (replaces Scriverner's Office):
available at Writing
Production cost scales with number of cities
+1 Faith, +2 Gold, and +3 Culture
+3 City Strength
+1 Great Diplomat Point
+2 Paper resources (up from 1)
1 Civil Servant Specialist Slot
+25% Production towards Diplomatic Units on empire (up from +10% locally)
Receive 2 free Emissaries on construction (up from 1)
1Food in City for Every City-State Friend
1Food and 1Faith in City for Every City-State Ally
Diplomatic units in this City get the "Proxenos" promotion (+2 Gold Per Turn in Capital from Diplomatic Missions)
+3 Culture to Markets on Empire

Proposed:
UW - Parthenon (replaces Scriverner's Office):
available at Writing
Production cost scales with number of cities
+1 Faith, +2 Gold, and +3 Culture
+3 City Strength
+1 Great Diplomat Point
+2 Paper resources (up from 1)
1 Civil Servant Specialist Slot
+25% Production towards Diplomatic Units on empire (up from +10% locally)
Receive 2 free Emissaries on construction (up from 1)
1Food in City for Every City-State Friend
2 Gold and 1Faith in City for Every City-State Ally
Diplomatic units in this City get the "Proxenos" promotion (+2 Gold Per Turn in Capital from Diplomatic Missions)
+3 Culture to Markets on Empire

Rational:
I have to ban Greece in my own game because this UNW is broken. Building/unit maintenance is the main way to curb gold growth. The Proxenos promotion completely negates this. Giving +2 Perma GPT is insane, especially when it is tied to something as spammable as diplo units. China used to be mega broken back when their UA gave perma gold, we shouldn't repeat that here with Greece.

I proposed to cut the Proxenos promo entirely. Greece already has so much diplo bonuses, the +5 influence is a bit much. +2 perma gold as stated before has got to go. To compensate, the UNW now gain +2gold per city state ally, which rewards good diplo play.

 

[Stalker0]

for my education, how does the OG version work? Is it everytime a diplomatic unit is expended I get +2 GPT for the rest of the game?

 

[pineappledan]

+5 influence is a bit much.

That’s nowhere on the current UNW.

To compensate, the UNW now gain +2gold per city state ally, which rewards good diplo play.

That is dreadfully boring, and makes this just a worse version of Germany’s UA

for my education, how does the OG version work? Is it everytime a diplomatic unit is expended I get +2 GPT for the rest of the game?

Yes, the Parthenon gains a permanent +2 gold for each diplomatic unit you expend.

 

[ma_kuh]

I think this was copied from your OP, which also omits the +5 influence on Proxenos (it is present in the image, at least). So is the image wrong, or the text?

How about tying the gold to your total paper count? And maybe giving you paper for each city-state alliance? So it ties into getting gold for alliances in a round-about way, while also unlocking the 25% ability by giving you lots of paper to work with. Normally I find buying diplo units more efficient because being limited on paper means I'm not building diplo units for long stretches; having more paper from your allies opens that up a bit.

Might be too much of a negative spiral though, if you can't get allies then you don't have paper to make allies. And if you have no allies the fastest way to get them is with gold... which you don't have because you don't have allies. Is that too much?

 

[pineappledan]

The text in the picture is deprecated. I originally gave the proxenos promotion +5 influence but removed it in light of the Siamese Wat change.

 

[Stalker0]

How about tying the gold to your total paper count? And maybe giving you paper for each city-state alliance?

the paper per ally is too much, but the idea of making it gold per paper I think is solid.

 

[azum4roll]

And maybe giving you paper for each city-state alliance?

This isn't a Paper Maker.

 

[Rosete]

That is dreadfully boring, and makes this just a worse version of Germany’s UA

The other way around. All diplo buildings have "give x yield per friend/ally city states". It is Germany's UA that's boring for having the same effect as a building line. I'd argue that these yield promote good diplo play by giving you an extra incentive to actively fight for city states influences.

the paper per ally is too much, but the idea of making it gold per paper I think is solid.

I agree that paper per ally is too much. That can snowball really hard really fast.

I don't like making it gold per paper. You gain paper from building diplo UNW (Scriverner's Office/Printing Press) or from expending Gdiplomat. That doesn't reward you for allying city states, it rewards you for building things, and generate great persons. The bonus yields for ally/friend city states is a nice carrot to incentivized players to engage with the diplo mini-game.

 

[pineappledan]

Your defense is "haha, no it's worse than that. Greece's UNW is 1 extra chancery on empire"
Yeah you're not selling this very well.

 

[Rosete]

Not what I said.

I proposed to take out the perma +2 gold on diplo mission, and shift it to a more temporary bonus that is consistent with other diplo building. The UNW already does a lot of stuff, extra yields, increased defense, free emmissary, ect. With this change the UNW will still be very powerful, but it won't have double the old China's UA bonus on an even easier trigger.

 

[pineappledan]

The yields to a building class are something every UNW does
The diplo unit production, emissary, paper, and yields for CS friend/ally are all things the base scrivener already does.
This would mean the only thing the Parthenon would do differently is have a bit of city defense.

The comparison with China is a bit unfair, considering China's permanent gold was in every city, while this is in 1 city.

 

[azum4roll]

The lack of population requirement (+big yields) and one more free emissary actually make it much better than it sounds. They can build it earlier and gain 2 friends/allies that way.

The food on ally shouldn't be replaced though.

 

[ma_kuh]

I don't think 2 gold per CS is what makes Greece want to "engage in the diplo minigame". It's already their reason for being.

In my mind, Scriverner's Office already rewards you for playing CS diplomacy. What's unique about the Parthenon should be a special twist, not just bigger numbers on the same trigger.

You mentioned that it basically boils down to being too strong of a scaler, why not just cut it to 1gpt/diplomat? Or give it a cap, mirroring the UA.

 

[N.Core]

Why not +5 GPT from every CS you've made a Diplomatic Mission? So it encourages Greece to send diplo units to all CS early on.
On Standard, that would be a total of +60 GPT in the Capital.