A Better AI.

[bdmarti]

Blake,

I was wondering if you intended to work on the fort code at all in order to get the AI to build and use forts properly?

I have been working on the problem myself and I'd be happy to share my progress with you if you feel this is something worth adding to the AI.

In my mind forts require the following:
1st the AI must build competently - Choose chokepoints and hilltops, particularly on otherwise marginal terrain like dessert or tundra. Take into account any other terrain defense and yield modifiers such as being able to build forts without chopping forrests. Also, be more likely to build forts while at war and refrain from ever spamming forts.
I've made some good progress in this area. I have changed the improvement yeild methods to take into account the defensive modifier of an improvement and to add to that change while at war and subtract from that change if other forts are near by.

2nd the AI must man the forts - Adding to the Devensive missions and RetreatToCity missions helps in this area and I have done this. Also creating a bogus resource to guard and giving that resource a value to the AI will cause the AI to guard forts. The best way is probably to add both an AI type and a guard fort Mission. I have made partial progress in this area.

In conjunction with a simple Zone of Control python script that halts movement of incoming troops and perhaps causes some damage these AI changes are a lot of fun and are very useful. If a ZOC is assumed in the design of the AI, then the AI could be capable of building a line of control such that an enemy would need to sack a fort or go a long way around.

Let me know if you will be working on this type of thing and if you'd like to see what I've done thus far.

 

[Instant_Cereal]

Here's some more feedback on the latest build. Whatever number... it was the one put up 2 days ago.

Anyway, very interesting map. Fractal, huge, marathon, monarch, high sea level. Resulted in not just one but several isolated continents. I got one, Toku got another, Saladin got a 3rd, and barbs got a 4th. There is also a group of AIs on two closely connected continents: Hatsepshut, Isabella, Julius, Cyrus, and Asoka. (There might be another AI out there somewhere, I've only explored about half the planet.)

Since I was isolated, I determined I needed at least one religion. Anyway, I got Hinduism, Confucianism and Taoism. Also, I determined to spam like mad since I had plenty of health resources. Plus, I hardly used Slavery at all. As a result, my research has shot through the roof.

I am about 10-12 techs ahead of the AIs. (I am the only one with Optics.) Tokugawa is in the stone age and has no religion. I'm maybe 20 techs ahead of him. Saladin, interestingly enough, also has no religion but has been able to somewhat keep up... I'm only 7-8 techs ahead.

The group of AIs have Buddhism, Judaism, and Christianity. Apparently they have been fighting off and on. I saw a couple of Great Generals pop up and one that even died (didn't know you got a event log when a GG dies).

And so... my thoughts. Apparently the AI mods to be more aggressive with each other are working. I like that. It has, however, ******** their research. That's inevitable I think.

On average, I think the more aggressive tendencies will balance out with the ability to tech trade. I wouldn't put too much stock in this one data point. Nevertheless, I appreciate that I was able to do well even though I was totally isolated. In the past, this has not been the case and it was very demoralizing. (Who wants to play a game for several hours only to find out that they're in a hopeless position??)

Also, Saladin being able to keep up in research, while totally isolated, is a good thing too. Seems like Toku has trouble keeping up no matter what; nothing new there.

Wodan

I think we're both right: due to Blake further enhancing the AI's tech lust, I believe the tech tree needs a little work with the possibility of increasing the research requirements for the latter half techs. Take steel and artillery for example: both are back-to-back, so what's the point of building some cannons? Or, perhaps decreasing the amount of terms. Don't remember when the 1 year per turn era begins, though.

In my most recent game I played as Wang Kon in a prince/standard/ring map/marathon game. Started out like how you described, being financial, I had a good tech lead and had optics before anyone else for a good amount of time. Then, however, things began to change with the onset of the renaissance period; the AI civs just came storming back and myself, Peter (who went from last place to being my ultimate contender), Alexander, Mao, and Ragnar were all at each others' throats in terms of tech. But, as you even stated, I burned through the tech tree as well, as I rarely traded techs because I know how they operate with tech trading. Interesting game though, as there was hardly any war... everybody was just science crazy.

As it stands now, even marathon feels like normal speed after a certain point, with techs being discovered every 6 - 12 turns, excluding trade. First half of the game is just bang on with balance and pace, but there's this shadowy pivot somewhere around the medieval and renaissance periods that sends everything awry. I like a challenge, but almost every game I play now--depending on how long I play--evolves into a tech grind, where things begin to feel like some sort of math and statistics pop quiz.

The space race in my game began at 1604... that's when the new world was still being colonized!

Edit: I've never seen an army that large by the AI... even on Monarch and Emperor. That's scary lol

 

[Wodan]

I've never seen an army that large by the AI... even on Monarch and Emperor. That's scary lol

Yeah, I was trying to get her to go attack Cyrus or somebody, but she wasn't buying what I was selling.

Wodan

 

[Quagga]

With the 11-18 build I got a crash-to-desktop before I built my second city.

 

[Wodan]

With the 11-18 build I got a crash-to-desktop before I built my second city.

Do you have any other mods loaded or anything? It's working fine for me anyway.

Wodan

 

[Blake]

I think we're both right: due to Blake further enhancing the AI's tech lust (...)

Technically I've just made them research faster through having better economies, rather than increase their desire to tech fast.

The thing is, the AI still techs slower than a fast human. Humans can do things like Liberalism by 1AD. The thing is, the AI is teching closer to the speed of a good human, rather than a bad human. The funny thing is some civilizations could pretty much be said to have had Liberalism by 1AD. It's just in the course of human history there was a dark ages and stuff (oh and they chose their free tech poorly).

Take steel and artillery for example: both are back-to-back, so what's the point of building some cannons?

Steel is actually potentially quite an early tech. To get Artillery you also need, if memory serves, Optics->Astronomy->Scientific Method->Physics and Printing Press->Replaceable Parts->Rifling. Steel may be a pre-req to Artillery, but Artillery has two other pre-req's which are more expensive to get to than Steel is.


Wodan, I found your game report interesting. I would guess that Hatty, Caesar and Cyrus all decided to do the dagger thing thanks to early UU's. Isbella woulda refused to trade due to religious isolation probably, and Asoka would've been too busy dying to tech quickly. A lack of tech trading and open borders trade plus heavy spending on military would've severely impaired the AI research rate.

I found I can usually handily out-tech my Monarch AI's, if provided a good start for teching quickly. Of course if you get something like Mansa Musa friendly to Washington then together they'll tech very, very quickly.

 

[Elhoim]

Good to have you here, Blake!

 

[Pfeffersack]

I love this mod - the game has become at least a complete level harder.Struggled with Prince, now struggling with Noble.

About difficulties...I think Noble should become a level without any AI advantages now - especially ones as the extra-cheap AI upgrades shouldn't be necessary anymore, after the AI has become so economically competent.

Another suggestion...don't know if it is feasible and within the range of this mod...I would like to see some improvement to the AI behaviour on the terra map.I love this map type, but it is a shame how the AI fails here to recognize the importance of the "new world".

 

[tonedog]

is there no way to have this ai mod run with other mods? for example ive just got the civ warlords but i wanna use one of the mods that make the longer longer

 

[Quagga]

I've attached the game that crashed for me. I had to play a few more turns from the autosave to get one that would crash on the next turn. I was using the 11-18 build with no other mods.

 

[Wodan]

I've attached the game that crashed for me. I had to play a few more turns from the autosave to get one that would crash on the next turn. I was using the 11-18 build with no other mods.

I tried it, crashed on me too. Just after the Lion attacked the Warrior.

AppName: civ4warlords.exe
AppVer: 2.0.8.0
ModName: cvgamecoredll.dll
ModVer: 0.0.0.0
Offset: 0011ff20

Wodan

 

[Abegweit]

is there no way to have this ai mod run with other mods? for example ive just got the civ warlords but i wanna use one of the mods that make the longer longer

The answer is "maybe". The Blake AI is just a replacement for one game component - CvGameCoreDLL.dll. If your mod does not change this DLL as well, you can use them together. If it does, then they would have to be integrated in the source code.

Assuming that it doesn't touch this component, the easiest way is integrate them is to do what Blake suggested - put his DLL in the standard folder where the Firaxis version is found. I don't have Warlords but the vanilla folder is C:\Program Files\Firaxis Games\Sid Meier's Civilization 4\Assets. Warlords should be something similar like C:\Program Files\Firaxis Games\Sid Meier's Civilization 4\Warlords\Assets.

If you do this, and another mod replaces this component, the other one will take precedence.

 

[Blake]

The crash bug has been fixed, expect a new build tommorow, hopefully. Also fixed is a problem where the AI starves it's cities and of course there are some other goodies, like the AI will be even less dafter with promotions.

 

[Wlauzon]

A couple of times on the 11/18 I had the game go into an endless loop (I assume). The "waiting on other civs" hourglass (the rotating thing) never went away, had to restart.

 

[Wodan]

Wodan, I found your game report interesting. I would guess that Hatty, Caesar and Cyrus all decided to do the dagger thing thanks to early UU's. Isbella woulda refused to trade due to religious isolation probably, and Asoka would've been too busy dying to tech quickly. A lack of tech trading and open borders trade plus heavy spending on military would've severely impaired the AI research rate.

Understood.

I've been thinking about this as I finished up the game. I like how it all turned out... except for one thing. The huge standing army of early units which I found in Hatty's capitol means yes, she decided to do dagger. However, she didn't pull the trigger.

Is "dagger" merely a build up of units, which a human will discover to his unpleasant surprise when the human decides to go for an early war? Or is dagger a build up accompanied by an attack?

Is it okay to build up and not attack? I'm not so sure. it's a huge early investment, to the detriment of research and infrastructure. To let it "go to waste" seems to me to be throwing your game away.

Wodan

 

[kettyo]

Yes, that is what I want! Feel like I'm just one more Civilization in the mix untill I make my way to the end, where I will be glorious or forgotten hehe! That is what I want!!! Lets hope Blake(or Firaxis) hear us!!

Sorry but i don't think it's possible.
I thought of several different things but neither works well even as a logical structure not as a programmed AI (i don't know programming).

Thought of AI's demanding other AI's different things, in multiple approaches but neither gives a good result.

Thought of just adding negative diplomodifiers like "you are a friend of that bastard..." or "we care for our friend..." to compensate for the demand pressure on the human but this also just messes the things up.

If you can think of some good solution we shall discuss it whether it's possible to make it work in the logical phase (it's another question whether Blake or someone could actually reprogram the game that deep).

But after all i like that i cannot just lay back and be in good terms with everybody. I have to choose sides, friends, enemies etc.
This brings alliance politics to the game which were not present in previous ones. It's cool.
Sure it would be better if AI's better involved but these alliance politics are really too complicated to write scripts for it.
How you choose which AI you favor and which not?
Numerous aspects.
Religion, strength, favourite civics, etc.etc. and most important their relations to other AI's (that way you get the picture what kind of gang you'll be participating in, who will be enemies and what will likely come)
Just too much aspects to program an AI for effectively i think.

I can live with the currect system in fact i like the new aspects of alliance politics but this surely takes away the "just one of the many" feeling.
For this feeling i suggest playing CivNET it's still a very good game but with a very simple diplomacy (war or peace )
For a very enjoyable diplomacy play Master of Orion (like they realize you muster a fleet in their neighborhood and they take a preemptive strike, amazing! ).
I read that Alpha Centauri is also very good in diplomacy but i still haven't tried that.

 

[kettyo]

Understood.

I've been thinking about this as I finished up the game. I like how it all turned out... except for one thing. The huge standing army of early units which I found in Hatty's capitol means yes, she decided to do dagger. However, she didn't pull the trigger.

Is "dagger" merely a build up of units, which a human will discover to his unpleasant surprise when the human decides to go for an early war? Or is dagger a build up accompanied by an attack?

Is it okay to build up and not attack? I'm not so sure. it's a huge early investment, to the detriment of research and infrastructure. To let it "go to waste" seems to me to be throwing your game away.

Wodan

Sure.
It would be nice if they let the dagger-army loose immediately as it's ready on someone they are annoyed (or even cautious) with.
It also means they should not adapt the dagger strategy if they were pleased or friendly towards everyone (not that usual).
It's really a waste of energy then.

By the way they also build a huge navy to drop their dagger-army overseas?
Might be important on continents maps.

 

[kettyo]

I have looked after the AI-AI diplomatic relations. So it seems there are some hidden modifiers which cause annoyed with +1 in some reason and pleased (more often) on the other.
In the early game 1 AI pulled off with score (by 20% or so) from the others and then all the other AI's were annoyed towards him with +1 modifier so i suppose there is a hidden modifier related to score (and maybe power) which works between AI's. The other AI's with nearly same score were all pleased or cautious with each other with +1.

Please Blake, could you confirm this that there are hidden diplomodifiers in effect in AI-AI relations?
And could we make them visible or even just understand how they work?

Thanks a lot!

 

[Blake]

There are indeed hidden AI diplo factors.
At higher difficulties all AI's have an automatic -1 with the human.
There is a thing called "Warmonger Respect" and it's counterpart "Peacemonger Respect" which gives a relationship boost to like-minded AI's (Monty likes Alexander, Mansa Musa likes Gandhi). This is why some AI's are "friends" from the very start.

 

[Arlborn]

Monty just built a dagger army here with a HUGE navy 0.o
I think I was pleased with him, and then I made a mistake of trade with his worst enemy and got -1 and then he atacked me oversea 0.o
I got completely owned in Navy, lost so many fishing nets! Had to buildd up a navy really fast, but I got luck that I got Asoka inside the war(dont ask!) and he was beside Monty, so Monty directed all his Navy on me(other continent, but right beside mine anyway) but no troops, all his troops went to his neighboor Asoka, poor guy
Later I drop the save here

nice