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A Case for Freedom?

Discussion in 'Civ5 - General Discussions' started by Colocolo, Sep 18, 2013.

  1. Kintara

    Kintara Chieftain

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    Another angle might have something to do with how many planted academies are optimal. And that's dependent on game speed. I was playing on Epic, which means ten academies is more likely to be optimal than in a Quick game. But that's sort of getting a bit into the weeds to be a useful claim anymore. I never play on quick, and rarely play on normal.

    Anyway, it's worth mentioning in general. New Deal sucks pretty hard if you play on Quick where you should be mass bulbing all your Great Scientists.
     
  2. civ54lyfe

    civ54lyfe Chieftain

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    players < or = King difficulty: you will love Double-Agents. bye-bye other civs mass stealing really big techs out of you. never cared about Tourism the whole game? Order's got ya covered for the warmonger AIs.
     
  3. apotheoser

    apotheoser Chieftain

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    Not correct.

    100 tourism + 100% bonus = 200 tourism (Order)
    133 tourism + 66% bonus = 220 tourism (Freedom)

    All other things being equal, the city bonuses is superior.

    Now, that said, it's obvious that which is actually better is going to depend on the target civilization. If you're going for a Tourism win, your choice basically depends on the other civilizations - it doesn't even matter what the trees are. If the biggest culture is on a Freedom civ, you need to go Freedom. If it's on an Order civ, you need to go Order.

    The +tourism bonuses in the actual ideology trees are irrelevant. What matters is what the other civs are.

    But back on topic, please remember what the actual statement was:

    So when you say:

    No, because I was responding to a specific claim about comparing specifically the tier 3 tenets of Order and Freedom. If you want to talk about something other than the tier 3 tenets that's a different topic.

    On courthouses versus city-state influence:

    Of course they are 100% comparable. Don't be ridiculous.

    Rushing a Courthouse costs X gold, and the tier 3 tenet automatically does that for you. It's worth X gold times the number of cities you capture, though admittedly there are weird little scenarios where you get a small temporary happiness boost while raising a city.

    Buying city-state influence costs Y gold per influence. The tier 3 tenet provides Z influence per turn. It's worth Z*Y gold. It all comes back to gold.
     
  4. Vidszhite

    Vidszhite Chieftain

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    All right, I concede that Freedom may be better at influencing OTHER ideologies in a straight fight. However, Order is still better at influencing the same ideology:

    100 tourism + 143% bonus = 243 (Order)
    133 tourism + 75% bonus = 232 (Freedom)

    Without DotP, Freedom does pull ahead (Order drops to 209), but remember what the original statement was:

    On that narrow band, Order is superior.

    Not necessarily. If you're going for culture win, you will likely have the luxury of picking the ideology that everyone follows, so you can pick based on whether you're tall or wide or if you want to win by Diplo, rather than what the big guy goes for. The big guy may just have to be annihilated one way or another -- what matters more is not what he picks, but what the rest of the world picks, and on that front, the AI -loves- Order.

    However, the debate over Order vs. Freedom is more a debate of Tall vs. Wide. Nobody picks ideologies in a vacuum. If you're tall-with-Tradition, obviously you want to pick Freedom, and if you're wide-with-Liberty, you want Order.

    We cannot take the tier 3 tenets in a vacuum just because it's convenient for your argument. None of the ideologies were designed in a vacuum, and as such, none of the tier 3 tenets were, either. Freedom may be able to purchase the spaceship parts once it reaches the very end, but that makes Space Procurements *completely useless* until the Information Era, while Spaceflight Pioneers grants 10 base science in the capital, making it more useful the earlier you take it, and it is available right around the early Modern era. If 10 base science in the capital were useless, nobody would build research labs. It adds up.

    Freedom does have the edge if it reaches the end first, but as with the World Games Win, Order is simply better equipped TO reach the end first, regardless of tier 3 tenets. If we really must compare a Tier 3 tenets in a vacuum, however, then Spaceflight Pioneers is clearly superior, because it actually *does* something before the information era, and even still allows rushing of parts, even if it does require something more than gold.

    If you must compare gold to gold, then Iron Curtain is vastly superior, because it can be used for every city in an opponent's empire, in rapid succession, multiple times per turn, and can be used on cities you have no intention of keeping while you destroy them, which is otherwise IMPOSSIBLE with gold alone. That scenario is anything but a weird exception -- if you're going for domination, you're not keeping every city you conquer, you're razing the vast majority of them. It easily saves you thousands, maybe even tens of thousands, over the course of a Domination game, especially if you obliterate wide empires, the likes of which are usually runaways that need to be stopped anyway. Treaty Organization, on the other hand, takes a long time to do the same job as a pure gold infusion would, and in the meantime, you're using inferior City-State trade routes instead of capital city trade routes, which severely blunts the gold savings you'd get from it.

    If you want to compare them gold-to-gold, then Treaty Organization gets utterly thrashed by comparison. I'd argue that even Arsenal of Democracy is superior to Treaty Organization on the same metrics, because it turns 125% of your production into gold without costing you an actual penny. It's a good thing, then, that TO and IC are for totally different things and don't compare to each other at all. Why you would adamantly pick such a battle is beyond my comprehension.
     
  5. Magma_Dragoon

    Magma_Dragoon Reploid

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    Academies are 8 science +2 scientific theory +2 with atomic theory = 12, at atomic theory
    Each academy needs a citizen to work it, which is 2 science with library and public school
    So an academy is 14 science...
    Well, +4 from new deal in freedom would be an increase of... let's call it 29% vs 25% from wf in order. So, I was wrong, freedom is better... if you have planted 36 academies in an occ... There you go, New Deal gets you more science if you put the game into a state that is never going to happen under any but the most contrived "Look what I did!" circumstance.

    Except for Korea, Korea nd and waifu are a wash
     
  6. kb27787

    kb27787 Chieftain

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    Planted academies help tourism a bit :p with WC policy...
    not to mention +4 from landmarks which is a lot of tourism after hotels and airports.
    But I think really:
    Order = SV
    Freedom = CV, DV
    Autocracy = DoV
     
  7. Vidszhite

    Vidszhite Chieftain

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    IMO, all three are good at all 3 of their stated victory conditions, but they are so different that you have to really plan your strategy around them. Looking at tenets alone isn't enough to say "X is better at Y" because of this -- they are designed for fundamentally different empires. I find Diplo Victory incredibly easy as Autocracy -- far easier than Domination as Autocracy, in fact.

    I will say, though, I just won my first Deity SV (and my first Freedom SV) and I can say that Order would not have done any worse, nor really any better. Spaceship parts are EXTREMELY expensive if you buy them, costing 1810 gold each, which is as much as a nuclear missile. I was never in any danger of losing the Space Race even if I hadn't been able to buy them, though. Gandhi, the next best, had only completed the Boosters and Engine by the time I launched my spaceship. Had I been Order, I also had two spare Great Engineers that I ended up turning into manufactories, and I only ended up buying two spaceship parts anyway, so really, you could make the case for both.

    Obviously, in this case, I was better off Freedom because I only had 3 cities, and was Babylon (6 Academies), but if I had been wide, Order would have done just as well, but even taking into account that bias, I don't think Order would have done any worse if I'd been forced to take it. It's an anecdote, sure, but I think once you pop your Deity cherry, that's worth a little street cred. ;)
     
  8. bhavv

    bhavv Glorious World Dictator

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    Mmmmmm, freedom:

    Spoiler :


    I've never tried order or autocracy cos I just take freedom all the time. I got both science and culture victories in that game.
     
  9. Vidszhite

    Vidszhite Chieftain

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    :lol:
     
  10. katfish

    katfish Chieftain

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    If you don't have observatories - order better, if you do
    Freedom>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
    Also i tend to go full commerce and right Rationalism, buying spaceship parts awesome. The sad thing is - cheaper buying units should be in freedom ideology under tag "mercenaries" or "PMC", not in a goddamn Autocracy.
     
  11. bhavv

    bhavv Glorious World Dictator

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    I had to keep on playing long after winning though just to cover all my capital's tiles for the fun of it.
     
  12. Vidszhite

    Vidszhite Chieftain

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    Hell no, that's the best tenet ever for warmongering. Commerce-Autocracy is so OP it hurts.
     
  13. bhavv

    bhavv Glorious World Dictator

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    Heres a video of my earlier screenshot, showing my usual endgame freedom / great person economy:


    Link to video.

    And my next map to try:

    Spoiler :


    Nice and cushy, all grassland, and a third cow 3 tiles south of the capital. Fewer freshwater locations though, so not many gardens can be built :(
     
  14. apotheoser

    apotheoser Chieftain

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    But you can have TO and AoD. But even so, AoD gives 20 influence per unit. TO gives 4 per turn. AoD can probably match TO by having a solid city churn out units non-stop... for a single city-state. Of course if you have multiple trade routes with city-states, it becomes pretty obvious that the influence granted by AoD is nothing compared to TO.

    (AoD is still great for the +25% hammers on military units, of course. In fact if you're just giving all the military units away, AoD is a pretty awful tenet compared to the other ones on tier 2 freedom. I'd almost always take Urbanization, Universal Suffrage, New Deal, and sometimes Volunteer Army over AoD. VA pretty much ruins the game if you get it early enough and are warmongering.)

    So then let's compare TO to IC. A Courthouse costs 500 gold to purchase. TO provides 4 influence per turn per city-state. Influence costs different amounts in different eras but in Modern it's 250 gold for 15 (I think). So the influence from 4 trade routes is worth slightly more than 250 gold per turn.

    Are you capturing an enemy city every other turn for the rest of the game? No? Then sorry, you're wrong, Iron Curtain is obviously inferior to Treaty Organization.

    Obviously, as always, "it depends." But there are a lot fewer scenarios where you can afford to just abandon all city-states and leave them to be allies with other civilizations, and you really need to capture a lot of cities to make IC worthwhile. Having courthouses at all is also situational on needing the happiness; by the end of the game when you're conquering quickly, you're probably not that worried about having enough happiness to hit another golden age.

    This is just an ignorant way of looking at the game. There is no such thing as "don't compare to each other" in Civ 5. There are defined win states. Thing A either gets you to one faster or slower than Thing B. Everything is comparable.
     
  15. Magma_Dragoon

    Magma_Dragoon Reploid

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    Nopes

    4=15... fascinating
     
  16. Yzman

    Yzman Chieftain

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    If you actually bother to read, he said 4 trade routes, meaning 4 x4 = 16 which is slightly more than 15 as his post said.
     
  17. Aaron90495

    Aaron90495 Chieftain

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    My problem with Freedom is that the AI's rarely pick it. In terms of power, Freedom vs. Order seems to be pretty even (I'd give a slight edge to Order), but AI's absolutely adore Order; if you pick Freedom, there's a decent chance you'll become a pariah sooner than later. And on Immortal/Deity, I just don't think you can afford to deal with the possible double/triple DoW's that come with being an outcast.

    Going hand-in-hand with the fact that the AI's love Order is the awesome Level 2 Order tenet that gives +33% Tourism to all Order civs; in my last game, 6 of 7 AI's went Order, and the one that didn't quickly got exterminated, so I had a 33% bonus with all civs. Then, you get tons of Happiness from Order, which complements the Level 3 tenet that gives you +33% Tourism against civs with less Happiness than you.
     
  18. bhavv

    bhavv Glorious World Dictator

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    Several AI pick freedom in my games.
     
  19. apotheoser

    apotheoser Chieftain

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    As I noted above, if you're attempting a cultural victory then you just pick whatever the most cultured AI picks, and the trees hardly matter.

    You do get tons of Happiness for Order to help use your tenet for more Tourism with less happy civs, but then again you need to actually beat them in Happiness. And Freedom definitely has a Happiness advantage over Order, assuming the Freedom civ isn't getting shredded by public opinion.
     

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