A change to organized?

[futurehermit]

I'm wondering if I missed a change to the organized trait along the way somewhere? I'm playing a game as Ethiopia and went to whip courthouses for 2 pop at size 4 on the first turn of building them. I swear I used to do this in the past (maybe not BtS, I haven't paid close attention) but now I have to put a turn of work into it before I can whip for 2 pop.

Is it just my imagination or did I miss a change to organized somewhere along the line--and if so, why was it made, it's not like organized is that strong of a trait?

 

[vicawoo]

I'm pretty sure it's always been like this. There's the no work done rush building penalty multiplier, and courthouses are 120/2 = 2 pop.

 

[Glouglou]

Hello,

I think their has been a nerf in the "empty whip" : I mean, you get a penalty now for weephing "empty" (no hammer spend) things ...
Befor BTS, their was another bonus: the first turn with no revolt after conquest, you had a hammer bonus ... maybe it has been removed too ... or maybe it is no longer that effective with the penalty now ...
But I'm not sure of all that ...

Glouglou

 

[futurehermit]

I swear that I used to immediately rush courthouses for 2 pop in newly conquered cities first turn out of revolt

 

[Glouglou]

I swear that I used to immediately rush courthouses for 2 pop in newly conquered cities first turn out of revolt

Yes I understood and I'm pretty sure I did it also ...
What I'm trying to say is that the change may not be in the organized trait but more generally for the wheeping (in BTS) with the penalty for wheeping a zero hammer building or soldier ...

 

[obsolete]

I haven't paid too much attention to something similar in this newer BtS, but.... when taking a city you end up running a ton of GA's while in anarchy/revolt. Now, turn 1 when we come out of that phase, I don't think you get all the culture that was produced during that time. But at ONE time I think you did.

I know there was a big arguement thread on this a while back, and I think part of the problems were there were changes going on constantly. What is the situation now? I suspect there is no point for the GA's to be running in revolt, since the last time I remember, you do NOT gain that culture when coming out of revolt.

This used to be a nice exploit where when you switched civics, and hit anarchy, specialists still produced, so you could micro manage to still get good production/gold/sci during those times. That's was nerfed, and also... from my last check in the BtS patching, it seems you also DO NOT gain GPPs from specialists or wonders during anarchy either.

 

[madscientist]

I think slavery has been nerfed in BTS, as it is best to actually build the structure a few turn to get a much better whip return. It's not the organized trait, it's with all building, I think.

 

[Sjaramei]

Now that you mention it... hmmm

But it seems we got the answer covered now

 

[futurehermit]

I see. Well, my opinion of the organized trait has now gone down a few levels because of this and that is unfortunate.

 

[oyzar]

The change is from warlords -> bts where in warlords there was done a turn of production etc in the city before you got it out of revolt so you could immediately whip while this is no longer the case and you have to wait 1 more turn before 1 turn of production is invested in the courthouse.

 

[futurehermit]

That really sucks tbh because usually cities are starving and that means a loss of one population point per city if you wait a turn. This was one of the main draws of organized for me and now I see it as a bottom trait instead of a mid-range, good support trait.

 

[Monkeyfinger]

Doesn't this only matter if the city you conquered had exactly 5 pop right after you marched your unit in as well as starvation?

If it's 6, then after the starvation from coming out of revolt + 1 extra starvation turn used to generate a hammer, you'll have 4 people and therefore still be able to whip your courthouse. If it's 4, it would go down to 3 right as it came out of revolt and then you wouldn't have been able to whip the courthouse even under the old system.

I don't like organized, but this seems a bit of a silly reason to lose a lot of respect for it.

 

[popejubal]

Pre-3.13 the turn you came out of revolt went like this:

Do food stuff.
End Revolt.
Do production, science, money, culture.

Now the "End Revolt" seems to come after the "Do production, etc" from what people are reporting.

You always had to put a single turn of production into the couthouses before whipping, but that coming-out-of-revolt-ness gave you that single (or more) shield that you needed to not whip on empty. Not a change to Organized, but rather a change to the process of ending revolts.

...on the plus side, Great Artists now end revolts again. On the minus side, they don't give you any serious culture anymore to claim tiles beyond your big fat cross.

 

[futurehermit]

Doesn't this only matter if the city you conquered had exactly 5 pop right after you marched your unit in as well as starvation?

If it's 6, then after the starvation from coming out of revolt + 1 extra starvation turn used to generate a hammer, you'll have 4 people and therefore still be able to whip your courthouse. If it's 4, it would go down to 3 right as it came out of revolt and then you wouldn't have been able to whip the courthouse even under the old system.

I don't like organized, but this seems a bit of a silly reason to lose a lot of respect for it.

It might seem silly, but it happens frequently enough in early warfare when a lot of cities are around this size to be really, really annoying. Warfare in the early going is where courthouses and thus organized really shines.

And tbh iirc it wasn't just when cities were in revolt. I had thought that when I used to play organized (either in vanilla or I think warlords) whenever I had a city that hit 4 pop I could whip for 2 pop to whip out a courthouse. It really helped early expansion efforts.

 

[oyzar]

That really sucks tbh because usually cities are starving and that means a loss of one population point per city if you wait a turn. This was one of the main draws of organized for me and now I see it as a bottom trait instead of a mid-range, good support trait.

It is the same amount of starvation as previously it is just that you get control of what is going to happen the turn you starve which you ddidn't have previously. You'll still starve 1 turn which is same as before.