A cogent explanation on the shortfalls of Civ V

Your "analysis" is literally long-winded, and being negative, it is a rant. These are factual statements, not insults.

No, they really are insults. A "fact" denotes an objective truth that is verifiable through observation.

The "fact" would be "Masterminded wrote a lengthy post about Civ5." That is an objective statement devoid of any subjective viewpoint. He and most everyone else would likely agree: it was a post, Masterminded wrote it, it was fairly long for a forum post, and it was about Civ 5.

Calling that long post "long-winded" is subjective and judgemental, as the phrase means "wearyingly verbose," not just 'long.' I assume you feel that the length of his post is 'wearying' because you disagree, but that's when it becomes your opinion - a subjective viewpoint - not an objective truth that can be verified by observers.

Similarly, calling someone's post a "rant" is another subjective intepretation, not a "fact." In this case, the fact would be "Masterminded described his dissatisfaction with aspects of Civ5." Again: observable truth that can be easily verified.

Maybe to you, that's a "rant" because you disagree, but again - you're applying a judgement and passing it off as a "fact," which it isn't, because it's not an objective truth.

It's sort of strange that you regard your own opinions as facts without even being aware of it. Do you truly lack understanding of the difference between facts and opinions, or are you just being intentionally disingenuous?
 
Alright. Let's amend my statement then. mastermind wrote a lengthy post describing his unfounded dissatisfaction! Better now? That felt unnecessarily verbose, even for me.
 
Alright. Let's amend my statement then. mastermind wrote a lengthy post describing his unfounded dissatisfaction! Better now? That felt unnecessarily verbose, even for me.

Well, with the exception of "unfounded," yes. Haha, you really can't help injecting your own viewpoint, can you? :lol:

(And obviously, a forum is mostly about expressing viewpoints - nothing wrong with that, until and unless you start calling them facts. Especially when they disparage another Civ fan or their posts.)
 
SuperJay:

Again, I don't believe that calling mastermind's input longwinded rants is disparaging. It's just a short way to describe his posts accurately. His dissatisfactions were and still are unfounded. He has already conceded to some of them being unfounded. In fact, all of them are. He just needs to read more or play more.
 
SuperJay:

Again, I don't believe that calling mastermind's input longwinded rants is disparaging. It's just a short way to describe his posts accurately. His dissatisfactions were and still are unfounded. He has already conceded to some of them being unfounded. In fact, all of them are. He just needs to read more or play more.

You're more than welcome to believe all that, but again, those are your opinions, not facts. (And thus, they aren't factually "accurate" or "inaccurate." Saying "I like the color blue" isn't an accurate or inaccurate statement; it's just my own personal preference.)

I don't have any stake in this debate one way or the other, but when I see someone blatantly calling their subjective viewpoint a "fact," I figure I might be able to help with some tips on language usage. ;) Carry on, enjoy yourselves, and good luck.
 
SuperJay:

Again, I don't believe that calling mastermind's input longwinded rants is disparaging. It's just a short way to describe his posts accurately. His dissatisfactions were and still are unfounded. He has already conceded to some of them being unfounded. In fact, all of them are. He just needs to read more or play more.

I conceded that some of my original statements were too strong. I amended them. However, I do not concede that the arguments they support are in any sense wrong. I don't think I need to read anymore or play anymore. I've beaten the game on deity quite handily. It's too boring to continue playing. Frankly, I don't think you understand my points as you are still restating them incorrectly and continuing to press your points against my original arguments rather than my amended ones.

You may not understand that you are insulting me, but that doesn't mean that you are not doing so. I will ask this again: If you cannot be civil, then stop posting in this thread.
 
I believe Masterminded have made some good points. What i don't get is what you are trying to achieve here, Roxlimn. Don't know if someone told you so, but trying to sell your arguments as facts and others as "rants" does not convince anyone. Maybe you convinced yourself, but i can imagine that's not what you are trying to achieve here.

So, say something usefell or just don't say anything. If you like the game, go play some more.
 
Jediron:

I declined to reply to masterminded's last comment because that is precisely what I am doing. What I said here to counter his statements are facts regardless of how I characterized his posts. They are observable, and they are confirmable.

You can win culture quickly with large Civs.
Happiness is a graded cap directly influenced by other limiters.
The game does not favor Civs with less cities.
There is AI feedback on their disposition.
Most buildings have specific and useful functions.
It is possible to build and use all of the modern units.
And so on.

Frankly, it surprises me that he can be so clearly wrong on so many counts and still have played the game. It's like he's not even playing the same game.
 
Moderator Action: Guys, you are all here very borderline at the moment.
This thread has been very decent at the beginning, and i hope it will get decent again when you begin to discuss the contents of the posts again, and not stiles and definitions.
I do not want to close this thread, so don't force me to.
 
Ok, I haven't read through the whole thread, just the first page and a jump to the end. But I bought Civ5 on the first day and have played relentlessly, and here's my thoughts:


(1) The diplomacy engine is brutal and functionality missing is mindblowing.

There is absolutely no option to trade for a world map? Are you kidding me? More then that, diplomatic options while so opaque offer us know way to really undo that. In this, I also include the missing element of "spies" who could do dirty work for you. Why is that important? Because repeatedly I've established "Secret Agreements" with both sides of a war, and yet, nobody seems to ever figure that out. That's silly.

(2) For those of us who dislike the military victory; something I have never played for in the past, Civ5 really sucks the fun out of it. Think about this: In Civ4, "Culture" could drive a nearby city to flip and join your empire. Here, City-States (which so far seems like a preposterous experiment) never "flip" they just demand repeated money; which is stupid.

(3) The status of barbarians is moronic.

Some people laughed in Civ4 with the inclusion of secret wonders (Atlantis, etc.) but it makes far more sense then me stumbling across barbarians holed up in the South Pole with a tank. WTH. Repeated spawning of barbarians is something that has never made sense to me, and in Civ5, now we have barbarians grabbing aircraft carriers?

(4) For those that like to play "Earth" the US map is stupidly wrong. In the US map, as presented, there is no oil anywhere in North or South America, anywhere, outside of near the north pole above Canada. Leaving out the political debate, there should be oil in the gulf of Mexico, Texas, and Alaska.. but there isn't. Also, making near desert terrain is ridiculous.

(5) The managing of mountains is wrong. Past civs had this figured out; roads, and especially highways can go through mountains. This has always been effective in Civ4 and I believe even Civ3. Yet here we are, I'm sitting with Future Tech 18, and in order to get around the Rocky Mountains, units have to wrap around the US. Do you know anyone in our country who finds mountains "unpenetrable" and we just drive to arizona to get around them? Highways, which are notably absent (they don't seem to exist at all) mean that North America and South America are basically crap.. but it also convolutes the map elsewhere (China). This is silly.

(6) You get the space program going (Apollo and Satellites) and yet, you don't have a world map? This should be a given, and has always been in the past; if you have satellites, you have a map of the world. Otherwise, what kind of spitball satellites are you throwing up there?

(7) The "Embark" function creates some weird situations.. watching a Barbarian Caravelle take down a Mechanized Infantry that has embarked is ridiculous. This may be just what it is, but still, stupid.

(8) In a Time victory, the only standard which seems to matter is military mass. I've tested this a few different ways. In a recent attempt, having a turn by turn output of 980 science, and every wonder in the world but two (Prince level) as well as all of North America, South America and Australia in my control, the fact that I had a limited army seemed to do me in. No win. Meanwhile, in another setting, much smaller civ, far fewer wonders, but a kick-ass army and I win the Time Victory.. there is something that cannot be right about this.

(9) One.. More.. Turn... doesn't function. In fact, in every try I've made at it, win or lose, it's just black with no option to select. There used to be a way to play this game for "infinity" You could play and win, or play and lose, but as long as your civ was still standing, you could keep playing until your civ was wiped out. Can someone explain why this has changed? What's the harm in this?


I find more and more that I wish Firaxis would go back and look at some other efforts in their stable and put some tweaks. I can learn to live with many changes (though I do also miss the very sensible "Form an Army" as present even in CivRevolution) but some fundamental gameplay changes should happen.

I also wish they'd look at the really different Civ-type games in their library and think about how to bring them back with some of the differences. (I'm looking at you Firaxis for where is Alpha Centauri 2???)
 
(5) The managing of mountains is wrong. Past civs had this figured out; roads, and especially highways can go through mountains. This has always been effective in Civ4

In Civ4, mountains were impassable, just like in Civ5.
 
You made me go back and do that; I admit, I had been away from Civ4 for a while. Ok, that's a flaw with that as well ;) Why is it I keep thinking of highways.. must be stuck thinking on Civ3/2.

Then again, damn, that's where I miss Alpha Centauri, where you could build high speed transport between cities..
 
One of my points has been that there are consistent and poorly implemented mechanics in the game. I have cited buildings as an example of this problem. CreepyOldMan has done an analysis on other thread analyzing the cost of the Forge in relation to its benefits. His conclusion is that it would take a high production level city to make up for the costs of teh building in a reasonable time period. In addition, this would require the player to build at least 9-10 longsword men (the unit he used in his calculation) from that one city.

I would also recommend post #14, where DaveGold discusses how poorly buildings in Civ V scale over time.
 
@Mercury529 (and others)

"But I consider these difficult decisions the basis of a good strategy game."

This response sums up everything that is wrong with Civ 5. Because, NO difficult decisions are NOT the basis of a good strategy game. Having FUN, is. Those of us writing critiques of Civ 5 are almost unanimous in communicating that we do not find making a tough decision in turn 50 which completely obviates one entire victory category at all "fun". In fact almost none of the restrictions in Civ 5 make the game more fun to play. The difference between this Civ and previous versions is like the difference between poker and blackjack. Is blackjack still a fun game? Sure, but probably not if you thought you were buying into a hand of Hold 'Em.

If your response is "well then, Civ 5 is not the game for you," fine, I will go see if I can get my money back. However, the overwhelming response seems to be "You just don't know how to play Civ 5 the right way."

OK, fine. TELL US WHAT WE'RE DOING WRONG.

I have been reading through and reading through posts on these forums and it all seems to boil down to a meaningless back-and-forth. Some say "I don't get it/don't like it/there's stuff that needs fixing" and others say "You're just adverse to change/don't know how to play the new game." OK, fine, now how about a little help and advice?
 
Interesting discussion that I thought I would contribute to.

First a few caveats. I am playing my way up through the difficulty levels and have only reached warlord so far. For this reason there my be AI strategies that I have not yet experienced. I usually always play on huge maps with epic speed, which means certain things for the happiness levels, likelihood of runaway AIs etc.

Secondly I would like to state up front, that I don't think Civ V is the worst game ever. I think it has flaws. Flaws, that for a large part can be expected from a game that changes so many mechanics in a franchise and flaws, that (in my opinion) can and will be corrected in patches and expansions. Let's be honest. Civ IV is so far the greatest incarnation of Civilization, but it only reached its full potential after two expansions and a great deal of balance and AI patching.

Let's start with the good.

1) 1UPT. I think this is an inspired decision. It introduces a level of complexity to the tactical aspect of combat that makes it fun even for me, who has almost never pursued the conquest victories. Granted, there are problems with the AI at the moment making combat easier than it should be, but this can be corrected.

2) Religion is gone. Don't get me wrong. I loved the concept of religion and I would have liked to see it implemented in some form in Civ V, but in Civ IV it had a much too large impact on diplomacy. If you ended up next to Isabella, you had to hope and pray you didn't both found religions.. Frequently half or more of the diplomacy modifier points were because of religion. While this may be realistic, it makes for a poor game mechanic and less fun.

3) Hexagons. It might seem a minor thing, but for me this was an important and much welcome change. More realistic, more inducive to strategic thinking, and less exploitable.

4) Less game-changing Wonders. I realize people may disagree with me here (and I have read several people voicing just that), but for me I like that Wonders give fewer game winning advantages and are more situational. It does tend to remove some of the awesomeness of building one, but I'm prepared to give that up for more fun.

5) Late game is much more fun. In previous Civs (even to some degree in fully patched Civ IV with all expansions) the end game was pretty much a question of inertia. If you were ahead you were going to win

On to the bad:

1) Diplomacy AI and AI options in general. Did anyone else see the mock preview of an update to diplomacy, that had all the options replaced with "Declare War"? This is what diplomacy feels like to me. I think for a large part this is due to me not knowing WHY the AI is mad at me. Did someone else pay him off? Did I move to close to his cities? Secondly there are problems with some of the mechanics here. Yes, 150 turns ago I promised I wasn't going to attack you, but three ages and multiple backstabbings from your side later, I don't feel I have much of a choice. Why does everyone else suddenly hate me for that? I also seriously lack any means of making friends with the AI. Giving presents or having positive relations for long periods of time seem to have no effect whatsoever. At least none that I can see, which leads me back to the point about the "blindness" of the diplomacy system. I feel that much can be improved here by adopting Civ IV's point system (which I feel quite confident they have running under the hood anyway. Just show it to us). Map trading and tech trading are also sorely lacking.

2) Cavalry. I haven't had all that much experience with it yet as I tend to follow the peaceful roads to victory, but my game as Alexander made it abundantly clear that swordsmen and longswordmen were the most superfluous units imaginable. Playing as Arabia or Mongols I doubt you would need archers either (which are really only there to deal with spear- and pikemen anyway). I have read many others complain about other aspects of combat balancing, but I haven't had the experience to confidently claim anything else.

3) Buildings. I realize that the approach is fundamentally different than it was in Civ IV, but I still feel there are problems in this area. Can anyone tell me what the point is of having a harbor, except in the one or two cities you produce most of your navy in? Maybe if you play Archipelago maps, but shouldn't the building be useful in all games? Solar plant are great for those desert cities placed primarily for oil ressources or the likes, but why does it have such a huge production cost when the cities that can build them typically have less production than most cities? The usefulness of Forges has been questioned by people more skilled than me (referenced by Masterminded above).

4) Terrain. This is probably one of my biggest grudges. The sameness of terrain bonusses alongside the meager bonusses from special ressources are ruining a lot of the fun of the game for me. This may not be true for everyone, but I'm one of the players who spent a lot of time planning my city placement and making sure that every ressource was optimally used. It was one of the primary reasons for me declaring war. Catherine settled her city so that Barcelona lost a cow ressource and the supercity I was planning is no longer possible? She must die! Now every city but the ones settled on ice or desert has about the same output, regardless of special ressources. Where's the fun in that? One exception of this sameness is the crippling sparsity of production. Basically you are going to want every city to be surrounded by forest. This is by far the most useful terrain and if you need food or gold you can just remove some of them for a handy production boost as well. A city without hills or forest is nigh on useless. Bringing back the Civ IV workshop would correct much, but an overall revision is much needed.

5) Diplomatic Victory. I would like this to include some element of skill rather than paying off or liberating enough City States to secure a majority.

6) Random events. I know a lot of people didn't like them, but could we please have them back as an option. I felt they added to my immersion and roleplaying and were just plain fun.

7) ICS. I saw hints of this superstrategy in my first games and it has later been proven to be a staggeringly powerful strategy on all difficulty levels. What I dislike most about this is that it goes directly against one of the stated purposes of Civ V to make smaller empires a good idea. Something needs to be done soon to correct this.

8) Runaway AI. In most of the games I've played (Frequently on Continents map type) one of the opposing players will start systematically eradicating everyone around him with seemingly little opposition and quickly take over the entire continent. While this may be realistic and certainly presents more of a challenge for me, it does tend to remove a lot of complexity from the end game and once again go against the "small empires are not necessarily worse"-concept. I'm expecting this to be corrected with AI patching at some point.

9) Advisors. I like that they're back, but some minor fine tuning is necessary. I don't have to have my military advisor tell me that every single one of my cities has military buildings and should be producing units. I know that. I built the heroic epic for a reason and state bankruptcy due to an enormous army was not it. Likewise I don't need the trade adviser repeating every single request from City States. Maybe put those on the diplomacy screen next to what ressources they can give me as allies and use the trade advisor something actually useful. The advisors are a minor point for me but still an irritant.

10) Civilizations. I can't quite seem to put my finger on why, but most of the Civs seem fairly bland to me. Few of the bonusses are really useful to me, the unique buildings are often lackluster or highly situational, and not being a warmonger I can't really get excited about the enormous amount of unique units. I can't really seem to pinpoint exactly where it goes wrong, but this really irks me.

11) Steam. Yes, I know.. It doesn't really belong here and everything (and more) has already been said about it, but it stills annoys me immeasurably. The only winners are the people who downloaded a pirated version. This is not an invitation to restart that particular discussion but merely a bitter old fart reiterating his pet peeves.

Things I am undecided about or have no opinion on:

1) The changes to happiness, research and economy. I realize this is a large change and people more experience with Excel spreadsheets than myself has made compelling arguments both for and against it. For my sake I think it is too early to pass judgement. I see both positive and negative elements and I look forward to seeing how the developers may tweak the systems in the future.

2) Cultural policies. I liked Civics a lot and I like policies a lot. There may be questions of balancing, but this was also true of civics. There may be policies I would never dream of taking, but this is also true of policies. Ultimately the change is not that significant to me.


Generally I just can't seem to get excited about Civ V. I'm hoping for a few other patches or some new civs to spark my interest. It's difficult for me to articulate my disappointment exactly, but I'll give a concrete example: For me the best part of a Civ game has always been the first couple of hours. That exciting period, when you are exploring, adapting to your surroundings, planning your future development and laying the groundwork for your inevitable victory. Yet in Civ V I find myself getting bored in this part of the game. It's not that there aren't things to do. I just can't seem to drum up much enthusiasm for them. The end game is much better sure, but I still feel sad to lose that first rush of excitement.

I haven't given up on Civ V. I'm not going to make some hysterical statement about how I will never play a Firaxis game again and how Shafer has ruined the franchise. Frankly, I find that kind of behaviour insufferably childish and not a little ignorant. I recognize the excellent foundation that Civ V represents and I hope that Firaxis in cooperation with the community can make it a great game in its own right.
 
For many Civ veterans, this is boring. We are accustomed to more strategic depth. Sure, accessibility has its advantages. This is obvious. But civilization, for all it’s critical acclaim, was never a very accessible game—it is a niche title appealing to hardcore strat gamers—and I do not understand why the developers want to turn it into one now.

I'm sorry, but I don't agree with this. Civilization, IME, has always been an accessible strategy game. It's like Othello, "a minute to learn, a lifetime to master." Sure, if you want to beat the game on Deity, you'll need to understand tons of detail to ensure you can compete with the AI's bonuses.

But if you want to play at the Nobelish level, you can easily walk through the tutorial, understand economy vs. culture vs. military, and then go about having a fun time playing the game. In cIV, you could still automate a fair share of the work, focusing on the macro while ignoring a good portion of the micro (like espionage). Hardcore strategy games, like EU, are not this simple.

Now, I'll agree with you that ciV is seriously lacking. But as a pretty non-Hardcore player, I resent that some think that this game was made to appeal to the casual crowd. TBH, I'm not really sure who this game was made for. One of the major complaints is that the build queues are too long and you wind up sitting around spamming 'next turn'. That appeals to casuals how? There should be a much faster pace if you want to keep casuals' interest.
 
Now, I'll agree with you that ciV is seriously lacking. But as a pretty non-Hardcore player, I resent that some think that this game was made to appeal to the casual crowd. TBH, I'm not really sure who this game was made for.

I don't think that is meant as an insult to those players, but more as a lament from those who feel like they "used" to be the target audience for the Civilization series, but are not any longer, and are feeling a lack of engagement in the game as a result. If you listen to Dennis Shirk's podcast interview, he more or less says (post-release) that Civ5 was designed for new players.

And no, I don't think anyone would argue that new people finding and playing Civ is a bad thing. Quite the opposite! But pre-release, Firaxis said that Civ Rev was providing that "Civ lite" experience for new players getting introduced to the Civ concept. IMO, you don't have strip content and mechanics out of a game to make it accessible to casual players. You can provide more guidance, tutorials, and in-game assistance to help new folks learn the ropes, without removing the depth that veteran players enjoyed.

(FWIW, I'm a pretty casual player myself these days, and have never been a Civ pro.)
 
Back
Top Bottom