A cogent explanation on the shortfalls of Civ V

Leif Roar:

The Civs in Civ also generally tell you how it is between you. The initial animation and commentary as you open up the diplomacy screen always tell you this. When they're friendly, they even call you "My friend." I have very rarely been under attack from former friends without the relationship souring first, and that has been the case in history as well.

bruntfca:

Just because you disagree doesn't mean that you have to be unpleasant, and I clearly earmarked where I said that my preference for opaque diplomacy was a preference.

Being unhappy doesn't hit your combat rating. Being very unhappy (at -10 happiness or less) gives you a -33% penalty, among other maluses. Unhappy and Very Unhappy are different states, and the game goes out of its way to smack you in the face with the exact differences.

This is different from how it was done before, so yes, going unhappy large only stops your upward growth, as I said. You can check out the files in your own game for confirmation, if you wish.

Doctor Phibes:

If it's anything to do by, I find the AI extremely reluctant to do war with me when we're trading three or more resources with each other.

I can understand how Pearl Harbor was viewed as inevitable, and when the Japanese fleet went "missing," American generals should have deduced where it was headed. That said, as I mentioned before, most of the AIs have decided likes and dislikes, and they are more likely to respect or not respect you depending. I've noticed that Gandhi really doesn't like it when you go around warring with people. Alexander doesn't mind much, but he's more likely to attack you when he's got nothing better to do - like expand or attack someone else.

The diplomacy in the game is opaque, but it is hardly unreadable.
 
throughout history, there were no sneak attacks to start wars?

Of course there were -- but while there might be some exceptions, at the top of my head I can't think of a single one that came out of a political blue sky. The closest I can think of is the German attack on Denmark and Norway in World War II, but even that occurred under the brewing storm-clouds of the greater political situation in Europe and Norway's closer ties to the UK and the USA.

I'd go so far as to say the complete opposite is true, almost all initial attacks were out of the blue.

This is so wrong I don't even know where to start. For much of history, out-of-the-blue attacks weren't even possible, as preparation for war were too laborious and slow to be hidden: men had to be massed, shipping secured, fodder and victuals procured and stored, oxen and wagons purchased, mercenaries hired and nobels informed and convinced.
 
If it's anything to do by, I find the AI extremely reluctant to do war with me when we're trading three or more resources with each other.

I can understand how Pearl Harbor was viewed as inevitable, and when the Japanese fleet went "missing," American generals should have deduced where it was headed. That said, as I mentioned before, most of the AIs have decided likes and dislikes, and they are more likely to respect or not respect you depending. I've noticed that Gandhi really doesn't like it when you go around warring with people. Alexander doesn't mind much, but he's more likely to attack you when he's got nothing better to do - like expand or attack someone else.

The diplomacy in the game is opaque, but it is hardly unreadable.

Sometimes it seems to make sense at first, I grant you. But I find that facade generally collapses fairly soon. For example, I've encountered the same issue that many others have reported here - that an AI player will ask you to join in a war and then when the enemy is vanquished, tell you you're a warmonger and flounce off. (There are plenty of others.) Allies falling out is not unknown in the real world, obviously, but it's usually for a reason - for example the ideological split after 1945. There is no rhyme or reason to the AI's conduct that I can discern.

(It might help if there were such a thing as a Shared Victory condition, actually.)
 
[...]

This is so wrong I don't even know where to start. For much of history, out-of-the-blue attacks weren't even possible, as preparation for war were too laborious and slow to be hidden: men had to be massed, shipping secured, fodder and victuals procured and stored, oxen and wagons purchased, mercenaries hired and nobels informed and convinced.

Yes, absolutely. I've mentioned 1914 several times. The true horror of that year was that everyone knew much of what was coming when the fuse was finally well and truly lit [1]. But the conditions of mobilisation at the time meant that mobilisation could not be stopped by any of the continental powers without them becoming vulnerable to the opposing power that continued with its mobilisation. This is a classic example in game theory.

The only way of stopping the slide to the precipice would have been to rebuild some trust. But that requires diplomacy, which had failed repeatedly, often due to happenstance events.

[1] Specific details proved a surprise, for example the supremacy of defensive tactics that lead to the stalemate in the west, but I don't think that negates the overall point.
 
Doctor Phibes:

Clearly, it's trying to make up a reason to hate you because you didn't join him in his war! ;)

I mean, seriously, is it bad that the AI would not like you after you refused to join it in what it viewed as a just cause? I mean, sure, it's telling you it doesn't like you in a limited language, but it seems rather obvious to me why it behaved that way, doesn't it?

There is always going to be a pattern to the AI behavior, because it is governed by code. That much is completely obvious. The AI behavior is not being governed by RNG. It follows AI coding. It just falls on players to discern the pattern.

Most of the patterns I have discerned hold up. Gandhi generally hates it when you fight, regardless of reason, and Alexander and Napoleon don't. In fact, I had Napoleon trading stuff with me before and after a nice war. You war on Gandhi and he won't tell you the time of day afterwards.
 
The AI reward system is designed to make Civ a wargame. They could have programmed it to make co-operation valuable for at least some AIs and they could have put in things like trade which made peace profitable. They chose not to, instead opting for military aggression and dogpiling on the weak as their "strategies." You could just as easily have adopted a balance of power approach, e.g. help the weak so that none of your competitors get too big and dangerous.

The Civ 5 system is simply miserable for those of us who don't want to see ourselves facing one big AI in one big war (unless there is an ocean between us, in which case nothing happens unless we cross the pond.)
 
Doctor Phibes:

Clearly, it's trying to make up a reason to hate you because you didn't join him in his war! ;)

I mean, seriously, is it bad that the AI would not like you after you refused to join it in what it viewed as a just cause? I mean, sure, it's telling you it doesn't like you in a limited language, but it seems rather obvious to me why it behaved that way, doesn't it?

You misunderstand. The example I'm giving is where you *do join them* and mutually defeat the enemy. And I'm not the only one who's had this, it's being reported all over the place.
 
Doctor Phibes:

Interesting. It could be any Civ, since warmongering always has a negative impact, but Gandhi and several other Civs would be more likely to see that as negative, even if it is their war you joined, on their side, even. It sounds crazy, but it's not random.
 
Originally Posted by Roxlimn
I don't mean that to be insulting or to rile you or anyone else. It is a simple statement of fact. You are wrong. You are not wrong for not liking Civ V. That speaks to preference, but the specifics are incorrect. In fact, you've already seen that cultural vics outside 5 cities is not only possible, but possibly the fastest way to win Cultural right now, but there are other specifics where you are wrong.
It is easy to win in EVERY way, i am afraid. You are right. I am right too; it still sucks.

1. Onerous restrictions.

In fact, going unhappy in Civ V only penalizes you by stopping upward city growth empire-wide. It has no other effect. You can keep plopping down Settlers anywhere you want until you get past -10. It can be hard to dig yourself out of that hole, but the key point is to manage your resources so that you don't get into that hole to begin with.
Getting out of unhappines is real easy; raze a few just conquered cities and you're done. It's simple, too simple. It's CIV 5

Even when you're very unhappy, your science and gold come in unabated, so you can easily keep pace technologically, and you can buy your way out of the hole you created. There are ways and means.
What you say here is again simple. Simple, easy and yet again; its CIV 5

2. Inconsistent mechanics.

[qoute]
Also untrue. I believe that I have used every unit in the Civ V line, and those usefully. I only except the Missile Cruiser, which comes too late, and the Nuke, because I don't like it. Contrast this to Civ IV where the late game was so set and badly designed that many late game units simply could be considered nonexistent.
Ow yeah, the "Panzered" Horseman and "one strike killer" Catapult are really usefull in CIV 5.
Simple, easy, again; its CIV 5.

Build times are a non-issue provided that you pay attention to growth and production. Stables is a bit of a bad example because it is a corner case of specific building boosting the specific production of specific units. It's a lot like the Civ IV Stable, actually, and barring Cavalry abuse, those were pretty marginal buildings, too.
Excuse me, making WAR with a lousy handfull of units is not my cup of tea. I've made 4 Horsemen and together with the warrior you start with, i razed six cities and killed dozens of AI-units. Took me 100+ turns to get this far, too much for my liking. Simple, easy, and boring too; Again : it's CIV 5

If you have enough gold, you can simply buy the happiness and cash buildings required for growth, and be able to build units well. If you don't have enough gold, your cities should be having enough production to not need buying. If you have neither, you're not playing the game well enough.
You are absolutely right for once; do as above, crush your oponents, cash in while they sea for peace and pop up those libraries, markets, etc.etc.etc.
Simple, fast, easy; again: its CIV 5


3. Poor AI

No contest. The AI is astoundingly poor. The only defense I can put up here is that it is about as competent as Civ IV AI, which was also really bad. This is not unusual for any Civ game, actually.
True, but in older CIV's you really had too put up a fight and even then, sometimes they backstabbed you. By the time they backstab me in CIV 5, i already own halff the planet....lol
Again, easy, simple; its CIV 5

The difference is that Civ V is more complex than Civ IV, so there's more chances for the AI to screw up. Thus, it is more obvious that it's bad.
The difference is, that it SEEMS to be complex. Once you look "under the hood" ; it's all soo simple.


4. I don't consider the transparent diplomacy plays of Civ IV to be interesting. Real players don't tell you why they're behaving the way they are. They can attack you out of the blue just because you look weak. Civ V's opaque diplomacy approaches real players more than Civ IV's BTS AI. I don't consider this a step back as a step to another ideal. I did not like the transparency in Civ IV as it made it harder to pretend that you were not playing a single player game.
In some ways diplomacy is indeed better, in others just as worse or worser.

5. The cultural victory can be attained even when you have large empires. In fact, it's easiest currently with large empires, and that needs a fix. Smaller empires need to be more competitive.
That needs a fix, and this too, and over there, you need a fix there. The game is drowning in fixable fixes...lol

6. Sullla makes the mistaken notion that ICS is in Civ V, much as it was in Civ III. This is not the case. In order to make ICS as profitable as he makes it out to be, you need 2 high-era policies at the end of their respective policy trees. This requires that you beeline Industrial Era and save up all policy points while doing so. You can't really do that while doing ICS. You can do ICS afterwards, though, though that is not materially different from how Civ IV allows you to do this with Corporations.
Yeah, finally you can do someting. Forget all the other issue's, you can ICS, people!
 
Jediron:

All the problems you're having are not complexity issues but difficulty issues - the AI isn't good enough to take on Civ V.

Civ V's systems are streamlined - that is, they don't generally ask you to make illusionary choices. Civ IV had a lot of these fiddly bits. You build a Granary to grow your cities. You don't really get a choice there most of the time, you just click it. Just another thing to do to grow and build infrastructure. Not much choice there.

Slinging hard and deep into the tech tree was also harder, so you pretty much had to fill your tech tree (using tech trades) all the time. No choices there, either.

Even maneuvering your SoD was simple most of the time. Pick a path to the nearest city, then attack. Couldn't be simpler. In Civ V, you at least have to have some semblance of tactics to get Horsemen to win you the game.

Just because the AI sucks at it doesn't mean that Civ V is less complex. It suggests that it's harder, not simpler.
 
Doctor Phibes:

Interesting. It could be any Civ, since warmongering always has a negative impact, but Gandhi and several other Civs would be more likely to see that as negative, even if it is their war you joined, on their side, even. It sounds crazy, but it's not random.

No it was Napoleon. And Lord Parkin's was Liz. I'm sorry, but I think you're introducing selection bias - counting only the times that AI behaviour makes sense (remember that a stopped clock is exactly right twice a day), and discounting all examples of crazy behaviour as unimportant.
 
Doctor Phibes:

Not at all. I'm not entirely surprised that it might be Napoleon. He must have commented on that particular issue because it was making him uneasy about you. It's a code, not random numbers. It follows a pattern. I can show you the HTML that outlines the modifiers for AI behavior, but why don't you just open the file yourself and see? I don' want to see that. I want it far from my sight.
 
Roxlimn
No, it's not only about the difficulty. It goes beyond that. Read this, for example:
http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=389911
That's another reason....

Civ V's systems are streamlined - that is, they don't generally ask you to make illusionary choices. Civ IV had a lot of these fiddly bits. You build a Granary to grow your cities. You don't really get a choice there most of the time, you just click it. Just another thing to do to grow and build infrastructure. Not much choice there.
The player hardly cannot do anything wrong anymore, thks to streamlining. The thinking is taken over by the advisor. A good CIV 3 player, did not builded every building that could be build; he builded them there, where they would benefit most. Much more versatile and the difference is; CIV 5 tells you exactly what to build where and in CIV 3 you have to figure it out yourself. You call it streamlining; i call it simplicity. It's the same. Personally, i prefer the old system. That divides the men from the boys, so to speak.

Slinging hard and deep into the tech tree was also harder, so you pretty much had to fill your tech tree (using tech trades) all the time. No choices there, either.
Which on it's own; can have very game UNbalancing effects. Do you really think that's a good development ?

Even maneuvering your SoD was simple most of the time. Pick a path to the nearest city, then attack. Couldn't be simpler. In Civ V, you at least have to have some semblance of tactics to get Horsemen to win you the game.
The tactics were simply, more so while the AI lacked any tactical skill (shoke points...etc.etc.etc.) The managing a nightmare, with guiding all thos singlebuilded units to their proper places....

You call a overpowered Horsemen or a "one strike killer" catapult TACTIC ?????


Just because the AI sucks at it doesn't mean that Civ V is less complex. It suggests that it's harder, not simpler.
Not only does the AI suck, 1 upt suck the way it is, game balance suck in trillion ways, city states power suck, there is much more then just
a bad battle AI.

CIV 5 suggests complexity , suggests it's a harder game, you're right about that. It suggest things, when you play it for the first time.
It does not take long, for a average/veteron CIV player; that it's all not that complex, not that bad. Infact, it's quite easy. Because it flees like it doesn't matter what you do,
the victorylane is ironed out for you.

That impressive Policy tree, looks real complex and overwhelming. You know what i do ? Random pick one "policy". Why bother, when the effects are so little and
you are gonna win anyway. That's the harder part of CIV 5...lol
(gonna try a game without using ANY policy at all, or maybe slingshot myself to the Galaxy, in the endgame...hahaha)
 
Jediron:

I'm already commenting on that thread, if you didn't notice.
 
Doctor Phibes:

Not at all. I'm not entirely surprised that it might be Napoleon. He must have commented on that particular issue because it was making him uneasy about you. It's a code, not random numbers. It follows a pattern. I can show you the HTML that outlines the modifiers for AI behavior, but why don't you just open the file yourself and see? I don' want to see that. I want it far from my sight.

I already have, and it's XML, not HTML. It's far from clear what all the modifiers do, but they seem strongly biased towards insensate bloodlust. There's a thread about it here and I'm looking for more info in the modding forum. (The otherwise excellent Modder's Guide says nothing much about Global Defines.)

Incidentally, if you are refusing to look inside the game mechanics, how are you convinced it's behaving so cleverly?
 
6) Tying it all together: A note on the meta-game

The meta-game is the overall approach to playing. The problem with Civ V isn’t any one mechanic. In isolation, all the aforementioned problems are not game breaking. The problem is that when taken as a whole, these mechanics break the meta-game.

The happiness/gold/low production mechanics coupled with the inflexible victory conditions restrict too many strategies. It sacrifices depth of play for ease of play. When there are fewer options and only a few mechanics to focus intently upon, the game becomes more manageable, more accessible, and more streamlined. The cost is depth. You are forced to utilize only a handful of strategies. Gaming acumen means less now because the aforementioned restrictions don’t allow much room for maneuver. You have to pick a strategy and stick with it. The strategies are simpler (i.e. only need to conquer capitols for domination, shallow diplomatic victory, etc.) This must be done with fewer cities and fewer mechanics to balance. Even all of the options, such as buildings and units, given to you are illusory, as they are either redundant or poorly implemented, a result of trying to use some of the advancements of prior civs, such as buildings that give XP on creation, with a whole new system of mechanics that render such advancements pointless. The sheer sloppiness of design in this game is apparent at every step.

For many Civ veterans, this is boring. We are accustomed to more strategic depth. Sure, accessibility has its advantages. This is obvious. But civilization, for all it’s critical acclaim, was never a very accessible game—it is a niche title appealing to hardcore strat gamers—and I do not understand why the developers want to turn it into one now.
Thank you SO MUCH for taking the time to write this down.

It is a great analysis that summarizes my own thoughts, and the final analysis is spot on. "It sacrifices depth of play for ease of play" - that is basically the tradeoff the designers must have had in mind, and where they goofed.

I hope some of the excellent modders out there can salvage something from the wreckage. I fear that the design is flawed to a degree that makes it difficult to repair through patches or expansions.
 
Doctor Phibes:

I didn't say it behaved cleverly. I said that it wasn't random. It follows a pattern. I feel like I've been repeating myself a lot here.
 
1) Onerous restrictions

This is entirely your personal opinion, has not been experienced by the entire player base, and therefore is a point that cannot be argued with. It's as if you have said "I like the color pink." Good for you.

2) Inconsistent mechanics

Buildings are now rendered useless by many of the games restrictions.

Gold exists. Use it to buy those buildings. You don't need a stables in every single city.

Wonders are weaker in this Civ than in any other. While it’s true that every civ game has had its fair share of useless wonders, this one seems to have even weaker ones. Coupled with longer building times, this change makes even less sense.

Examples please.

There are too many units, especially in modern times. You can’t build them all, or even a good fraction of them, when unit maintenance costs and build times are higher, and when the stacking mechanic has been removed.

First it's that there's too much restriction, now it's that there's too much freedom! I believe I've hit on what the problem is. You cannot be pleased.

Conquest has been rendered impossible or extremely slow lacking a genocidal bent. I will pay special attention to this one, as I find it to be one of the most game breaking and poorly conceived mechanics in the entire game. Just like in Civ III, where the costs of overexpansion were too high as a result of the corruption mechanic, there is a strong incentive to raze entire empires because you cannot afford to keep those cities. Annexing the city makes little sense as the cost of a courthouse in terms of maintenance and the happiness hit until that building actually erects is prohibitively expensive. Turning cities into puppets is just as expensive since the AI seems to like massing buildings, which eventually empty your offers in maintenance costs. Even without these mechanisms, massive conquests are too costly, as the happiness hit, even without the occupied city effect, is too restrictive for anything but slow and incremental conquests.

Kay... work with it. All you've really done is state that you can't just mass up and take the map in one swoop.

3) Poor A.I.

This is actually the only point that's pretty dead on the money. The AI is poor right now. It needs to be looked at pretty drastically.

4) Inscrutable diplomacy

Diplomacy is supposed to be inscrutable. If you play a board game, there's no "Diplomacy Meters". You guess what your opponent is up to based on his/her actions in the game proper, not on some +1 system.

5) Inflexible and shallow victory conditions

The same ones that have been in the Civ Series for years, but ok.

These are the most problematical aspects of the game. Given the restrictions mentioned in the first section and the requirements for some of these victory conditions, players must now choose a victory at the beginning of the game and stick with it. There is little flexibility to shift toward a cultural victory, for instance, when you conquered your neighbor or overexpanded. I cannot count the number of times in previous Civ games where the flexibility to change strategies to pursue another victory condition was needed, whether it was because I fell behind the tech race, angered too many AIs, or lacked the ability to conquer my foes. The option to change added depth to the game. That is now gone.

Oh noes! Is now possible to lose! I can't just jump into whatever strategy I want to at any second?! This game is too restrictive!!!

Like it's supposed to be.

Cultural victories are the best illustration of this problem. Build/conquer so that you have more than 5 cities and this path becomes inaccessible due to the very poor scaling of social policy costs relative to the number of cities. Puppeting cities does not help this because, as mentioned, they will bankrupt you.

The only case where this example is true is if you don't know what you're doing. Create trading posts around puppetted cities terrain and it FORCES them to produce money. Build a market, and a bank. There's an entire HoV Challenge going on where the top guy, finishing at 1620 at that, does precisely this strategy that you say is impossible.

Diplomatic victories couldn’t be more shallow. In past civ games, the player was required to actually build alliances and improve relations over time. In Civ IV, the AI even kept a memory of your past infractions. Now all that is needed is to buy off the city states before a vote.

The only flaw I see here is that the AI doesn't see the value in City states, it seems. This goes back to the only point you've made that's actually valuable, Poor AI.

Even STILL, you are required to have a TON of money and invest in the necessary policies to see this through.

Dominance victory conditions are broken due to the already covered restrictions against conquest (happiness, maintenance costs, and poor social policy cost scaling) and the incentivization of genocide. My one dominance victory consisted of a small number of cities destroying every city I conquered, save for the capitols, which is prohibited. At the end of the game, the world had one continent with a few former capitols and my continent that was only 25% inhabited. That looks and feels ridiculous. There should be more options than genocide.

"Genocide" is a funny word to be using here. It's a game. These are the rules.

Dominance victories are also too easy given the atrocious AI. I conquered the world with about 10 units in a relatively short time period.

Again, point three is well taken.

6) Tying it all together: A note on the meta-game

I would argue that you're attempting to jam your own perception of what the meta game should be into a game with a completely different approach. Perhaps it's your own thinking that's out of step, and not the game. But let's continue anyway.

The meta-game is the overall approach to playing. The problem with Civ V isn’t any one mechanic. In isolation, all the aforementioned problems are not game breaking. The problem is that when taken as a whole, these mechanics break the meta-game.

Literally an impossibility, but ok.

The happiness/gold/low production mechanics coupled with the inflexible victory conditions restrict too many strategies.

In that they make it actually possible to lose, that is true.

It sacrifices depth of play for ease of play. When there are fewer options and only a few mechanics to focus intently upon, the game becomes more manageable, more accessible, and more streamlined. The cost is depth. You are forced to utilize only a handful of strategies. Gaming acumen means less now because the aforementioned restrictions don’t allow much room for maneuver. You have to pick a strategy and stick with it. The strategies are simpler (i.e. only need to conquer capitols for domination, shallow diplomatic victory, etc.) This must be done with fewer cities and fewer mechanics to balance. Even all of the options, such as buildings and units, given to you are illusory, as they are either redundant or poorly implemented, a result of trying to use some of the advancements of prior civs, such as buildings that give XP on creation, with a whole new system of mechanics that render such advancements pointless. The sheer sloppiness of design in this game is apparent at every step.

Oh for the love of... the game has been out for less then a month and already every single strategy has been discovered! OK everyone, you can stop playing now! A random person on the internet has declared that every possible strategy imaginable has been discovered within a three week period! Throw the game away, there's no point to carry on, because in THREE WEEKS every possible thing that we CAN know about a game HAS BEEN KNOWN!

Sheesh, doesn't it sound ridiculous when people say ridiculous things?

For many Civ veterans, this is boring. We are accustomed to more strategic depth. Sure, accessibility has its advantages. This is obvious. But civilization, for all it’s critical acclaim, was never a very accessible game—it is a niche title appealing to hardcore strat gamers—and I do not understand why the developers want to turn it into one now.

I firmly believe that the systems that are in place are strong ones. If you play this game with people, the game is intense and incredibly engaging. The only actual flaw in the game is the AI. The AI cannot handle itself in this game quite yet, and until it can, even reasonably, there's no way that the game is going to have the lasting appeal of other titles.

That said, you are comparing a game that has been out for THREE WEEKS with games that have been out for YEARS. This is foolish, and a logical fallacy at that. It's the same thing that we've seen again and again in the gaming community where people cry about insignificant things, and leap to conclusions to their own detriment. Just play the game, enjoy it, and get creative and weird with it.

Can we please stop it with these stupid threads that talk about how flawed Civ5 is while giving NO ACTUAL POINTS. How many times have I seen this, "I won't go into detail of how badly designed this game is because it's well tread." The reason you're not going into it is because you can't.

Sheesh.
 
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