A comprehensive criticism of FFH2

[ProkhorZakharov]

Your argument seems to consist entirely of "If I want religion/magic, I'm not going to play the civ that can't use it."

That is an invalid argument... Seeing as that is pretty much the intention. As I said earlier on in the thread, there is no need for every player to like all civilizations. Again, that would actually be bad design, because the moment everyone likes every civ they are once again bland and similar.

If your argument was that they did not receive enough benefit to make up for losing those mechanics (valid in the vanilla Grigori, I feel, but not Khazad), then that is a valid argument. But that hasn't been what you've said, for the most part.

Honestly, in both cases it enhances the civilization's flavor, at least IMO. And I'm one of the players for whom a civ's flavor is very important (mechanics are moreso, but still). I like both of them.

The guy who doesn't like religions (or just wants to play without religions this one game) can do that regardless of whether or not the Grigori can use religions. The guy who likes religions can play with religions as any other civ regardless of whether or not the Grigori can use religions. The guy who wants a buch of heroic Priors running around converting things is out of luck, though, because the Grigori can't use religions. Magic and the Khazad is the same issue, but less pronounced. Ultimately, it comes down to whether the Grigori flavor is worth losing out on some possible strategies. I personally, don't think it is (though sometimes flavor is worth losing out on mechanics) - Cassiel's single-minded, snobbish militancy really annoys me, and I'm no fan of any gods myself. In any case, I'm proposing abolishing the Grigori, and giving their adventurers to another civ. Under those circumstances, I don't think any other civ should have the Agnostic trait. As for the Khazad, the inability to use magic isn't really a fundamental part of their flavor. In fact, I've played a full game with the Khazad, and only realized they couldn't use mages when looking them up to write this thread.

 

[ProkhorZakharov]

I've updated the OP to include the civilizations from the Lanun onwards. I've also edited some parts of my earlier criticism; those parts are underlined.

 

[Jabie]

Intersting post.

Some of the gameplay is influenced by the Lore. Grigori are concerned with self-determination. They don't hate the Gods, they'd just prefer self-reliance (If you want a nation that hates the Gods try the Mechanos in RifE / Orbis) The Grigori play different to other civs. You can't use religion, so will have to change your tactics if you normally rely on religion. Same with the Khazad and magic. Same, for that matter, with the Kuriotates. Each Civilisation has different strengths and weaknesses, making each game experience different. That's far more fun than having one Unique Unit and one Unique Building like in basic Civ.

The learning curve is steep, but most players should have the basics on Civ IV down to pat anyway. In addition, the new scenarios are amongst the best places to start for learning some of the FfH nuances. The Cave of Ordeals quickly gets the player up to speed with magic usage, Grand Menagerie teaches Animal Hunting and the first scenario in the Decius chain is a great scenario which teaches players some of the basics, but gives them enough guidance and attainable goals to get on with it.

 

[DaveGold]

Ultimately, it comes down to whether the Grigori flavor is worth losing out on some possible strategies.

When some strategies are removed you have to develop new strategies. I personally find that interesting. For example, if you're a Grigori player who can see Loki nearby you've got an immediate problem of how to generate culture in a newly built city, a problem usually solved by religions.

 

[Nikis-Knight]

The guy who doesn't like religions (or just wants to play without religions this one game) can do that regardless of whether or not the Grigori can use religions.

Not really. Playing without a religion as a normal civ is intentionally handicaping your self. Playing without one as a civ designed around that puts you on a level playing field.

The guy who wants a buch of heroic Priors running around converting things is out of luck, though, because the Grigori can't use religions.

He's not out of luck; he's out one civ out of 19, and so long as he is clearly informed of the major changes (something sometimes lacking, but not as bad now), will know to approach the Grigori differently, or not at all.

 

[Valkrionn]

The guy who doesn't like religions (or just wants to play without religions this one game) can do that regardless of whether or not the Grigori can use religions. The guy who likes religions can play with religions as any other civ regardless of whether or not the Grigori can use religions. The guy who wants a buch of heroic Priors running around converting things is out of luck, though, because the Grigori can't use religions. Magic and the Khazad is the same issue, but less pronounced. Ultimately, it comes down to whether the Grigori flavor is worth losing out on some possible strategies. I personally, don't think it is (though sometimes flavor is worth losing out on mechanics) - Cassiel's single-minded, snobbish militancy really annoys me, and I'm no fan of any gods myself. In any case, I'm proposing abolishing the Grigori, and giving their adventurers to another civ. Under those circumstances, I don't think any other civ should have the Agnostic trait. As for the Khazad, the inability to use magic isn't really a fundamental part of their flavor. In fact, I've played a full game with the Khazad, and only realized they couldn't use mages when looking them up to write this thread.

And once again... Your argument is based on every player liking every civilization.

There is no need for every strategy to work on every civ. In fact, that is a large part of FfH's draw for me; Each civilization plays differently, each civilization must be adapted to.

I'm also not sure where you get "Cassiel's single-minded, snobbish militancy" from... The lore states that the Grigori ideal would be a land-owning yeoman, serving in a militia. There would be a very small standing army, Cassiel simply teaches men to rely on themselves rather than so-called 'gods'.

 

[Valkrionn]

Lanun

Boarding Party: Losing 1 strength in exchange for an often irrelevant ability seems unduly harsh.

Guybrush Threepwood: I don't object to the hero concept, but I do object to the name. 99% of the time, FFH is a high-fantasy style game that takes itself and its lore quite seriously. Guybrush and the Stooges kind of wreck this. Most of the best moments in FFH come from the feeling of epicness, say, sending all your forces off to war, only to have Stephanos come in and steal half your empire, before finally being defeated by the level 12 Champion you upgraded from your starting warrior. Having Guybrush Threepwood run in and sing a silly song kind of ruins that.

Pirate Coves: The placement restrictions on Pirate Coves means you have to meticulously plan out your current and future city locations before building anything to maximize your Cove placement. I know some people like that kind of thing, but I find it extremely tedious.

Overall: The Lanun really are a bit too tied to the coasts. This makes them insanely powerful in Archipelago, and rather bland on Pangaea. The problem is, the AI is deathly afraid of water, and can't really cope with anything but Pangaea.

What I'd change: I don't think there's any way of separating the Lanun and their need of water; a Pangaea mapscript that introduces significant amounts of coast via peninsulas and lakes would probably be the best way to balance them (that mapscript probably already exists). I'd simplify the restriction on Coves to "a city can only work 2 Coves at a time", assuming that can be implemented. Finally, I'd rename Guybrush and take away his singing. The Merchant trait from RifE might be interesting for the Lanun.

First off: With your objections on Guybrush, you'd like Iceciro's module. Removes all outside references like that. Personally, I like them; See the "Shard of Strength/Wisdom/Courage", and the item they combine into, in RifE.

Keep in mind, Pirate coves can be very strong. Personally, I'm okay with limited placement... And since you can set a distance requirement in the XML in RifE, it's used more commonly.

A pangaea like that would be ErebusContinent; Check the modmods forum, or the maps folders with RifE and Wild Mana, it ships with both.

It would be problematic to design the cove limit you prefer, I think; Possible, but to get it working right might cause issues.

And the Merchant trait would be rather strong... The Lanun do not need extra food.

Ljosalfar

March of the Trees: It's a decent panic button in the case of an invasion, but I don't like the fact that it completely destroys your economy through a combination of lost food and production from the forests, upkeep costs on the treants, and the time taken to build enough Priests of Leaves to bloom everything back up again afterwards.

Overall: The main feature of the Ljosalfar is the Elven ancient forest economy, but the Svartalfar also get that. Having slightly stronger archers is nice, but it's not enough to define a civilization.

What I'd change: I think the Svartalfar and Ljosalfar are far too similar to have both in the game. Losing the Ljosalfar means losing Dexterous, but I think archery units are already good enough at what they do (a single commando city defense archer on a hilled city can take out a dozen axemen without breaking a sweat). March of the Trees is kind of interesting but in its current state not too valuable. Gilden, Flurries, and Fydwells aren't anything particularly unique.

I disagree here, but to each their own.

I'm of the opinion that the two elven civs are tied together (as they should be), but play quite differently.

Luchirup

Overall: I haven't gotten around to playing the Luchirup yet, so I can't really comment on them.

My only complaint is that your units can be outclassed fairly quickly; Golems cannot be promoted. The RifE team has a few ideas for them, but hasn't done anything yet.

Malakim

Likes deserts: Even though the civ is supposed to be all about deserts, they still can't use deserts for anything productive. Even worse is the fact that they're often thrown into a desert at the start of a game, though to their credit they can at least get out of it quickly.

Lightbringer: I like the idea of an early disciple unit that can upgrade to any disciple, but 60 hammers for 2 strength is really harsh.

Overall: I think the Malakim are another civilization that does some interesting things, but not enough of them.

What I'd change: I'd start by losing the desert-related features and the Citadel of Light (they'll come up again later), and I'd orient them more towards getting a diversity of religions rather than focusing on one state religion (the Lightbringers already kind of encourage this).

Or you could stick to the current features and enhance them.

Malakim+ gave them valid reasons to want to live in the desert. They receive less unhealth from floodplains, are able to create Oases (one per city), receive food from trade, a special assassin that is very strong but only invisible in the desert, and the Bedouin Sit improvement line, which allows them to develop a cottage-like improvement that will provide enough food to support the population working it.

Sheaim

Pyre Zombies: Given how much Fall from Heaven revolves around giant Stacks of Doom, Pyre Zombies are really annoying. It's impossible to attack a Pyre Zombie stack unless your units have 3 movement (or 2 and Commando), as by the time you kill 10 of them your entire stack is dead from recoil. Similarly, a stack of over 10 PZs can wipe out almost anything.

Planar Gate: Planar Gates are awesome, I just wish they were worth their immense cost. It also kind of sucks to have to choose between spawning Chaos Marauders and Tar Demons and avoiding Carnivals (not that big of a deal) and Temples of the Veil (rather annoying).

Abashi the Black Dragon: Just like all the other dragons, he comes too late to be relevant.

What I'd change: I'd reduce the cost of Gates to 200 hammers. I'd change the spawn chance from 6/9/12/15% (depending on AC) to 4/6/8/10% (depending on AC) + 2% for each of the relevant buildings you have in the city. This balances the risk of getting crappy units with the higher chance of getting units. I'd change Pyre Zombies so they deal collateral damage on death to up to 4 units. I'd give them an archmage hero at Arcane Lore in addition to Abashi.

Your Pyre Zombie suggestion has been in FF (and thus, RifE) for several months, if not over a year. It's obviously one I agree with.

RifE has done a bit here in 1.3 as well, mostly with Planar Gates; We've added a new 'basic' gate spawn, made it cheaper/earlier, created a display for the spawn chance, and rather than modify the spawn chance based on buildings... We modify the spawn chance based on the amount of hell terrain around a city. More hell, more spawns. Makes it quite worthwhile to destroy the world now.

Also planning to add two more summons.... Just need to get around to it. And I wouldn't give them an Archmage hero, I'd give them a Mage hero that can upgrade. Again, not gotten around to it.

Sidar

Overall: The two things the Sidar specialize in (sorry), specialists and shades, are really interesting, but they're not enough. Playing the Sidar feels really bland most of the time, especially since your strong specialists and shades do most of their work in the background. Ghosts, Divided Souls and Into the Mist are kind of neat but don't really do all that much, given that the AI doesn't often base their decisions on where your units are anyway.

What I'd do: I'd give the Sidar specialists and shades to the Amurites. They synergize very well with the Amurite builder playstyle, magic focus, and Caves of the Ancestors. This could well result in the Amurite/Sidar hybrid being way too strong late-game at the cost of a terrible early game, but my proposed changes to the Amurites are mostly based on strengthening their early-game. Anyway, it might be interesting to have a civ that can come back from a poor start to actually challenge you late-game. Rathus Denmora could be given to the Balseraphs to replace or supplement Loki.

Not going to spend much time replying to this one, just read this: urlremoved/rife/blog/2010/07/01/city-actions-and-the-sidar-revamp/

Some of the newest changes we've made.

Svartalfar

Strong recon units: I think it's a good idea to have a civ that focuses on the often-neglected recon line, but I wish there was more here than just +1 strength.

What I'd change: As mentioned before, I'd combine them with the Ljosalfar. I'll discuss the details later.

Again, I think the two elven civs are unique enough.

New Civilizations

Some of my proposed changes would result in creating civilizations that, while not having many features not already present in the game, would be fairly distinct from any existing civilizations. I'll describe them below. They could be given some more unique units taken from the civs I advocate removing, it's kind of arbitrary.

I really dislike the idea of combining/removing civs, but I'll answer each one as critically as I can.

Ljosalfar

Leaders: Arendel (Good), Thessa (Neutral), Faeryl Viconia (Neutral). Amelanchier's defender/raiders never made much sense to me. Faeryl's made neutral because the Ljosalfar aren't an evil civ.

Flavor: I'd keep the Ljosalfar flavor, as the Svartalfar don't make much sense without the Ljosalfar for contrast. I think the Svartalfar mechanics are stronger, though, so the new civ would focus mostly on that.

Elvish Lore: Gives all recon units a free Combat 1 promotion. Gives all captured animal and beast units the March promotion. Removes maintenance costs on animal and beast units.
Justification: The most interesting thing recon units can do is capture animals. Unfortunately, animals simply aren't very useful in combat. You have to pay maintenance for them while they go back to your territory and heal up, then you have to bring them back to the front lines (they mostly have 1 movement compared to 2 for recon units), then they're fairly weak in combat and can't pillage. Elvish Lore (there's got to be a better name, but I can't think of one) lets you overrun your enemies with a horde of lions, tigers, and gorillas, and that's pretty epic. Combat 1 instead of +1 strength means you can get Subdue Animal that much faster, gives almost +1 strength on Hunters, and gives more on Rangers and Beastmasters.

Hero: Alazkan the Assassin: He might need to be reflavored a bit, but he's a much cooler hero than Gilden.

Nyxkin: Same as the Svartalfar one. It's just cooler than Fyrdwells.

Flurry: Because they're elves, dammit, and they have to have something special in the archery line.

Worldspell: Veil of Night: It's a unique effect, and it's a lot more interesting than March of the Trees.

Can build in forests: Because that's really the whole point of the civ.

Technically, they'd be the Alfar, as Ljos and Svart are names for two factions of the once-united race.

So essentially, this is just the svartalfar. In that case, my question is this: Why not simply give your "Elven Lore" trait to the Svarts?

Malakim

Leaders: Varn Gosam (Spiritual, Creative(Adaptive)), Decius (Organized/Raiders).

Flavor: The Malakim would still be tribal nomads, but they'd lose their desert focus. They'd gain more of a focus on accepting all the religions as being valuable without needing to believe in one to the exclusion of all others.

Diverse: The Malakim can tolerate many competing world views. Units do not abandon them due to religious or alignment conflicts, nor require specific religions/alignments to be built (they still need the right religion to be present in the city, and of course the temple). Because of their diversity, the Malakim cannot choose a state religion and thus cannot choose the Theocracy civic (the loss of happiness here makes up for the free Incense).

Malakim Palace: Provides 1 Life Mana, 1 Sun Mana, 1 Incense.

Lightbringer: As before, but with 3 strength.

Religious Fervor: For each city you own, gain a priest (or, for Esus, an assassin) of a random religion present in that city. Each of those priests gains 1 EXP for each city in the world with its religion.
Justification: It's quite a powerful world spell, but that makes up for the Malakim's other weaknesses. I think it's better than the existing world spell because a diversity of priests is better than having lots of the same kind.

Hero: None. Diverse gives them them the potential to have a ton of heroes already.

Ascent to Divinity: Ritual, available at Divine Essence costs 1200 hammers. Requires you to control every Holy City. Causes all civs to declare war on you when you start building it. Wins you the game when you finish. This isn't really a necessary feature of the civ, but it would be kind of neat as a replacement for Auric Ascended.

Overall: This would allow the Malakim to employ a unique multi-religious strategy, while still giving them a fair bit of power if they stick to one religion via Desert Shrines (rename to Tribal Shrine?) and their World Spell.

This is actually not a bad idea. It even sticks (fairly) close to the lore. However, I still prefer my implementation. It stuck even closer. :lol;

TXT_KEY_CIVILIZATION_NAME

Leaders: One Industrious/Expansionist, one Organized/Charismatic, one Philosophical/.

Flavor: This civ is basically a mashup of all the leftover features from cutting and merging the other civs. I envision it as a group of hardy, individualistic survivalists of all races who band together to drink, fight and go on adventures. It's most similar to the Grigori, but without Cassiel. I can't think of a name for them.

Tolerant: Same as the Elohim's

Units start with random race: Same as the Grigori's.

Adventurers: Same as the Grigori's.

World Spell: Ardor.

Survivalism: This civilization is able to survive in any terrain:
Deserts give 1 Hammer, 1 Gold.
Tundra gives 1 Food, 1 Hammer.
Snow gives 1 Food (+1 Gold next to river).
Marsh gives 2 Food.

Overall: Basically, it's a civ that can conquer things reasonably well thanks to Adventurers, make use of their conquests well with Tolerant, and expand even more on their own thanks to Survivalism. They may be a tad overpowered with all their benefits, if so they'd need a drawback to compensate (can't build cottages? That'd actually be significant, as everyone builds cottages (assuming agristocracy is nerfed, and I support the Wild Mana nerfs to that)).

Anyway, that's all the civs. More tomorrow!

This is basically a tolerant Grigori that gains bonuses in various terrains and is not agnostic.

Admittedly, tolerant Grigori is fun: When I play them, I play Esirce in RifE, who is tolerant. The rest, though, I just do not agree with; I love the lore behind the Grigori, and this destroys it.

Also, random races are only (really) in Wild Mana. RifE will have Refugees with random racials, but that's it... I see that mechanic as fairly annoying, as you never know quite what you're going to get, and occasionally may WANT the Grigori unit.

 

[JonathanStrange]

Regarding most of the suggested changes to various civilizations: I'm glad the major changes are over!

Some (many?) of the changes seem too specific to one person's ideal of how the game or the civilization should play. For example, the Ljosalfar leader Amelanchier's defender/raiders makes sense for a leader who's a touch xenophobic (I call him "territorial" myself) and willing and able to send pillaging raiders into another's lands while benefitting from fighting on his own turf. Changing that is wrong. Gilden Silveric is boring and uncool? Do not forget it was he who killed the Red Demon whom even Yvain feared to face.

It's all moot now of course. We all can set up the parameters of a game just the way we like it. I've been experimenting with different Elven or Pirate graphics 'cause I'm not a fan of the Elven graphics (wbut that's all just personal preference.

Anyone who gets the AI to use fleets that assemble, protect transports, and invade? My hat's off to along with a thousand doubloons.

Anyone who can make the AI seem like it "has a plan" (and I don't mean in the Battlestar Galactica/ Lost "make it up as you go along" way), a hundred free mana nodes to you.

 

[Valkrionn]

Regarding most of the suggested changes to various civilizations: I'm glad the major changes are over!

Some (many?) of the changes seem too specific to one person's ideal of how the game or the civilization should play. For example, the Ljosalfar leader Amelanchier's defender/raiders makes sense for a leader who's a touch xenophobic (I call him "territorial" myself) and willing and able to send pillaging raiders into another's lands while benefitting from fighting on his own turf. Changing that is wrong. Gilden Silveric is boring and uncool? Do not forget it was he who killed the Red Demon whom even Yvain feared to face.

It's all moot now of course. We all can set up the parameters of a game just the way we like it. I've been experimenting with different Elven or Pirate graphics 'cause I'm not a fan of the Elven graphics (wbut that's all just personal preference.

Anyone who gets the AI to use fleets that assemble, protect transports, and invade? My hat's off to along with a thousand doubloons.

Anyone who can make the AI seem like it "has a plan" (and I don't mean in the Battlestar Galactica/ Lost "make it up as you go along" way), a hundred free mana nodes to you.

I disagree on your points about Amelanchier: Changing him as a leader while maintaining his xenophobia is fine. We're planning on changing his leader status (if you aren't aware of what that means, RifE has three 'levels' of leader), while preserving his xenophobic nature.

 

[ProkhorZakharov]

A lot of people have been commenting on the lore. To me, the specifics of the lore aren't really important, what is important is the general feel of the game. This comes out through playing the game normally, not from reading the stories in the civiliopedia. I know that's not the case for many people. I should have made this more clear (I'll put it into the OP), but my "What I'd change" is more about making a modmod than about changing the game itself. My proposed changes have a very different purpose to those of RifE or Orbis; I want there to be as much interesting stuff as possible in a single game of FFH, by allowing each individual civs to do more interesting things, while still keeping the complexity of the game as a whole in check. RifE wants there to be as much interesting stuff as possible in the game as a whole, by adding many new features to existing civs and adding in even more civs on top of that.

Keep in mind, Pirate coves can be very strong. Personally, I'm okay with limited placement... And since you can set a distance requirement in the XML in RifE, it's used more commonly.

Yeah, I absolutely agree with limitations on Coves. It's just the implementation I have a problem with.

And the Merchant trait would be rather strong... The Lanun do not need extra food.

Good point. They could get hammers instead, maybe, or simply more gold. The Lanun are pretty strong already, any buffs they get would have to be counterbalanced by buffs to other civs or nerfs to Pirate Coves.

I'm of the opinion that the two elven civs are tied together (as they should be), but play quite differently.

Malakim+ gave them valid reasons to want to live in the desert. They receive less unhealth from floodplains, are able to create Oases (one per city), receive food from trade, a special assassin that is very strong but only invisible in the desert, and the Bedouin Sit improvement line, which allows them to develop a cottage-like improvement that will provide enough food to support the population working it.

Yeah, I read through the Malakim+ entry on the RifE wiki, and it's an interesting way of doing it. I'd personally prefer to have one civ that's strong in all terrain than to have one that's strong in desert, another for ice, another for tundra, and another for marsh. I feel that the mechanic of "this unit is strong in this situation (e.g. desert), and weak in other situations" is a very risky mechanic to use. It often results in a unit being overpowered half the time and underpowered the rest of the time, meaning you've never got the close fights that make games so exciting. It can work, though, if you can give the player enough control over when the unit is and isn't strong (e.g. through Scorch), so I'd have to see it in play to judge it.

Not going to spend much time replying to this one, just read this: urlremoved/rife/blog/2010/07/01/city-actions-and-the-sidar-revamp/

Some of the newest changes we've made.

That's an interesting approach. I'm not personally a fan of Hidden Lands, due to its complexity, but it's appropriate for RifE. You make a good point about Shades; I've found it very difficult to play Sidar because Waning cripples my army. I'd go for the simpler alternative of letting units Wane once and then losing the ability to Wane, though there's probably balance issues there if you give them that huge buff and then merge them with the Amurites.

So essentially, this is just the svartalfar. In that case, my question is this: Why not simply give your "Elven Lore" trait to the Svarts?

That's basically what I'm doing; it's just that I don't think the Svartalfar flavor stands on its own very well. People don't expect Elves to be sneaky and evil. The presence of the Ljosalfar gives a good explanation of that; the Elves split into two civilizations, one good, one evil. Without the Ljosalfar you're just left with evil Elves, and that's rather counter-intuitive.

Also, random races are only (really) in Wild Mana. RifE will have Refugees with random racials, but that's it... I see that mechanic as fairly annoying, as you never know quite what you're going to get, and occasionally may WANT the Grigori unit.

That's a good point. I originally thought it was a good idea because sometimes you'd get an Elven worker that can work forest tiles, but in retrospect that'd probably diminish the uniqueness of the Elves and be too luck-based. It's kind of interesting for flavor but not worth the complexity.

 

[Valkrionn]

Yeah, I absolutely agree with limitations on Coves. It's just the implementation I have a problem with.

Yeah. There's just not really a better way to do it; It's either worse than the current implementation, or takes a LOT more code to accomplish.

Good point. They could get hammers instead, maybe, or simply more gold. The Lanun are pretty strong already, any buffs they get would have to be counterbalanced by buffs to other civs or nerfs to Pirate Coves.

I don't really think they need anything more for their trade... Though I'll be giving them a different mechanic, when the Aquatic races are added.

Yeah, I read through the Malakim+ entry on the RifE wiki, and it's an interesting way of doing it. I'd personally prefer to have one civ that's strong in all terrain than to have one that's strong in desert, another for ice, another for tundra, and another for marsh. I feel that the mechanic of "this unit is strong in this situation (e.g. desert), and weak in other situations" is a very risky mechanic to use. It often results in a unit being overpowered half the time and underpowered the rest of the time, meaning you've never got the close fights that make games so exciting. It can work, though, if you can give the player enough control over when the unit is and isn't strong (e.g. through Scorch), so I'd have to see it in play to judge it.

I can agree that it's risky... But it also lends a lot of variety. Terrains that are usually bad become good. In and of itself, it's not enough. But combined with other features? It can work well.

Right now Malakim land becomes desert automatically in both RifE and Wild Mana, but that's likely to change in RifE version 1.4.

That's an interesting approach. I'm not personally a fan of Hidden Lands, due to its complexity, but it's appropriate for RifE. You make a good point about Shades; I've found it very difficult to play Sidar because Waning cripples my army. I'd go for the simpler alternative of letting units Wane once and then losing the ability to Wane, though there's probably balance issues there if you give them that huge buff and then merge them with the Amurites.

I don't find it too complex, not when it is essentially the main feature the civ has. The coding is actually pretty easy.

I just dislike the original Shading altogether honestly.

That's basically what I'm doing; it's just that I don't think the Svartalfar flavor stands on its own very well. People don't expect Elves to be sneaky and evil. The presence of the Ljosalfar gives a good explanation of that; the Elves split into two civilizations, one good, one evil. Without the Ljosalfar you're just left with evil Elves, and that's rather counter-intuitive.

My argument is just that I think both civs are unique. They have very different playstyles... All that is similar is you'll be in forests.

That's a good point. I originally thought it was a good idea because sometimes you'd get an Elven worker that can work forest tiles, but in retrospect that'd probably diminish the uniqueness of the Elves and be too luck-based. It's kind of interesting for flavor but not worth the complexity.

Yeah. Your last statement is exactly how I feel about it. That's why in RifE it is relegated to a minor feature on a single unit. One that you don't even build.

 

[ProkhorZakharov]

Would it be possible for a mod to move this post to follow my original post?

Religions

I'll cover the religious civics later on in the "civics" section.

Ashen Veil

Demon's Altar: I don't think the Sacrifice ability really does that much. It's almost never worth focusing on the Sacrifice ability specifically, it's just a slightly better alternative to deleting units if they happen to nearby. I especially disagree with the Wild Mana change of requiring a unit to be level 2 or higher to be Sacrificed.

Sacrifice the Weak: I really like the idea of this civic as a whole. I think the -20% GPP, +10% gold, +10% science is unnecessary, though. It's not really a positive or a negative, and it doesn't really change how you play.

Overall: I think the AV are quite a balanced, well designed religion. They offer a lot of neat combos that make the player feel smart for discovering them, such as *SPOILERS* Diseased Corpses/Ritualist, Infernal Grimoire Malevolent Designs rush, Sacrifice the Weak with Slavery or Conquest (but not both! I learned that to my peril.) *END SPOILERS*.

What I'd change: I'd make Sacrifice give 20 + level^2 beakers, rather than 10 + level^2. I'd get rid of the miscellaneous penalties and bonuses on StW.


Octopus Overlords

Asylum/Lunatic: Asylums are rather expensive. The +1 and 10% chance of any built in that city starting with Enraged pretty much cancels out the +15% science, +1 GPP and -25% war weariness, meaning you're building Asylums just for Lunatics. The problem is, Lunatics are just weak, unreliable Stygian Guards.

Stygian Guard: These guys are just like Crusaders and Paramanders, except they can use metals. It means they pretty much overshadow Champions, seeing as they both cost 120 hammers, Stygians have a much more useful prerequisite building, and Stygians have 1 more Strength.

Hemah: Hastur's Razor just seems like a very narrow, weak ability to give to such an expensive hero. She's obviously strong enough, as an Arcane Lore archmage hero, but I'd like to see her have a more interesting ability.

Overall: The Octopus Overlords don't have much of a focus. They do a bunch of good stuff, but you rarely say "I'm going to go OO because I want to do blah". You say "well, I'm near a bunch of water, and I don't really need any other religion, so I might as well go OO". Also, I don't really like the name "Octopus Overlords", they're not worshiping actual octopi, and it just sounds silly. Something like "Cult of the Old Ones" (thanks Vakrionn) would be more flavorful, but that might infringe on copyrights.

What I'd change: I'd make the OO (CotOO) focus more on Lunatics. I'd remove the ability of the Stygian Guards to use metals, bringing them in line with other "crusader" units, and give them Mutated. I'd remove both the drawbacks from Asylums, and make it so any unit in a city with an Asylum can't get Enraged (that's already been implemented in another mod). I'd increase the strength of Lunatics to 8/4 (from 7/4). This would give the OO a focus on unpredictable, wanton destruction; Lunatics attack anything that moves while Cultists smash up improvements.


Council of Esus

Overall: I think the Council's status as a pseudo-religion makes them really messy and overly complicated. If you join CoE, some things say you're in it, and other things say you're not.

What I'd change: I'd make the Council a proper religion. It would still function in largely the same way as it does now. I'd give them the Svartalfar kidnap ability, as I feel it makes more sense for the Council than it does for the Elves, and the Council are slightly lacking in interesting things to do.


Fellowship of Leaves

Fawns: They're like Axemen, except they cost 50% more, can't use metals, and can't pillage. They're a bit faster, that's something, I guess.

Guardian of Nature: +1 per forest is ridiculous. I support the Wild Mana change reducing it to 0.25 .

Overall: The Fellowship seems, mechanically, to be a bit too closely tied to the Elves. Ancient Forested Cottages, Farms and Mines are great. Ancient forests themselves are pretty weak.

What I'd change: I'd make Fawns into Hunters that start with Woodsman I and don't get the -20% city attack penalty. This makes it much easier for them to get to level 4 in order to become Satyrs, and makes them actually worth building over Hunters. I'd allow Priests of the Leaves to cast Bloom on top of an existing improvement. This lets all civs following Fellowship eventually get an Ancient Forest economy going, but much more slowly than the Elves can.


Runes of Kilmorph

Overall: Runes of Kilmorph is a fairly well-balanced religion. Nothing they do is especially exciting, but they fill their role.

What I'd change: I think Paramanders could use something to distinguish them from Crusaders and Champions, but I can't think of what that would be.


The Empyrean

Chalid Astrakein: This guy is absurd, or rather, Pillar of Fire and Crown of Brilliance are absurd.

Radiant Guard/Ratha: I don't like the Blinding Light spell (I'll explain why in the spells section). I especially don't like having large numbers of highly mobile Blinding Light casters supported by Vicars who can take out any assassins you send to try and stop them.

Vicar: Revelation would make more sense as a passive effect than as an active spell, although the Wild Mana auto-cast system more or less makes this a moot point.

What I'd change: I think The Empyrean, mechanically, needs to be overhauled completely. I'd replace their current truth-and-justice focus with a truth-and-knowledge focus based on magic. I'll describe it below.


The Order

Basilica: 200 hammers is absurdly expensive compared to the 60 hammers required of a courthouse. +1 commander GPP isn't worth the extra 140 hammers, especially considering commander's aren't even very good Great People.

Prior: Your high priest units shouldn't be sitting around in cities oppressing the populace, they should be out on the battlefield stealing units with their awesome Command IV.

Overall: The Order seem a little unfocused. They've got a bunch of useful things, but nothing that really stands out and makes you say "I want to go Order".

What I'd change: I'd make Order a religion with a focus on going out and conquering or settling a lot of cities, and spreading the Order to all of them. I'd reduce Basilicas to 90 hammers. I'd make Social Order give a 30% reduction in city maintenance due to number of cities. I'd replace Unyielding Order with another spell, but I can't think of one.


New Empyrean

Flavor: An order of mage-scholars dedicated to finding eternal truth.

Dies Diei: Same as before.

Temple of the Empyrean: As before, but also allows the building of Adepts. Gives +10% science instead of +10% production.

Vicar: Level 4+ Adepts can upgrade to Vicars, if they do they retain their normal arcane spellcasting abilities as well as divine spellcasting.

Luridus: Level 6+ Mages or Vicars can upgrade to Luridi.

Radiant Guard: Can cast Sanctify, not Blinding Light.

Ratha: Can cast Scorch, not Blinding Light.

Revelation: Deals 30% (max 100%) damage to all summoned units within 3 tiles as well as revealing invisible units and removing Hidden Nationality in that radius.

Crown of Brilliance: Deals 20% (max 40%) damage to all units in adjacent tiles. Destroys all summoned units in adjacent tiles. Grants all units in adjacent tiles the Silenced promotion (can be resisted, +20%): Cannot cast spells, wears off at the end of the owner's turn.

Pillar of Fire: Deals 30% (max 90%) damage to all units, allied or enemy, except Chalid, within 2 tiles (including Chalid's tile). Allied units not in this area cannot move into this area this turn. Basically, this retains the power of the Pillar, but also introduces a corresponding risk. You have to either accept that your own units are going to be damaged, or leave Chalid on his own, or bring plenty of healers.

 

[Valkrionn]

Religions

I'll cover the religious civics later on in the "civics" section.

I'd like to point out that since not all religions have a civic, the religious civics need to be weighed with the religions. Not the merits of it as a civic, particularly, but the effects it has if you go with that religion definitely.

Ashen Veil

Demon's Altar: I don't think the Sacrifice ability really does that much. It's almost never worth focusing on the Sacrifice ability specifically, it's just a slightly better alternative to deleting units if they happen to nearby. I especially disagree with the Wild Mana change of requiring a unit to be level 2 or higher to be Sacrificed.

Overall: I think the AV are quite a balanced, well designed religion. They offer a lot of neat combos that make the player feel smart for discovering them, such as *SPOILERS* Diseased Corpses/Ritualist, Infernal Grimoire Malevolent Designs rush, Sacrifice the Weak with Slavery or Conquest (but not both! I learned that to my peril.) *END SPOILERS*.

What I'd change: I'd make Sacrifice give 20 + level^2 beakers, rather than 10 + level^2.

I have honestly never used Demon's Altar for the sacrifice. I don't think it's a core mechanic, just meant to add a bit of flavor, so probably fine as it is.

In RifE, following AV grants access to an expensive ritual (which destroys the city it is completed in) which sets you at peace with the Demonic barbarian faction. Helps make up for the fact that hell can and will spread into your territory, and spawn demons.

Octopus Overlords

Asylum/Lunatic: Asylums are rather expensive. The +1 and 10% chance of any built in that city starting with Enraged pretty much cancels out the +15% science, +1 GPP and -25% war weariness, meaning you're building Asylums just for Lunatics. The problem is, Lunatics are just weak, unreliable Stygian Guards.

Stygian Guard: These guys are just like Crusaders and Paramanders, except they can use metals. It means they pretty much overshadow Champions, seeing as they both cost 120 hammers, Stygians have a much more useful prerequisite building, and Stygians have 1 more Strength.

Hemah: Hastur's Razor just seems like a very narrow, weak ability to give to such an expensive hero. She's obviously strong enough, as an Arcane Lore archmage hero, but I'd like to see her have a more interesting ability.

Overall: The Octopus Overlords don't have much of a focus. They do a bunch of good stuff, but you rarely say "I'm going to go OO because I want to do blah". You say "well, I'm near a bunch of water, and I don't really need any other religion, so I might as well go OO". Also, I don't really like the name "Octopus Overlords", they're not worshiping actual octopi, and it just sounds silly. Something like "Cult of Cthulu" would be more flavorful, but that might infringe on copyrights.

What I'd change: I'd make the OO (CoC) focus more on Lunatics. I'd remove the ability of the Stygian Guards to use metals, bringing them in line with other "crusader" units. I'd remove both the drawbacks from Asylums, and make it so any unit in a city with an Asylum can't get Enraged (that's already been implemented in another mod). I'd increase the strength of Lunatics to 8/4 (from 7/4). This would give the OO a focus on unpredictable, wanton destruction; Lunatics attack anything that moves while Cultists smash up improvements.

One thing: Hemah is male. He may also be Danalin's avatar.

For the rest:

• I agree (mostly) on the Asylum. I think a stronger Lunatic would fix that for the most part though.
• Stygians use metals because they otherwise are lacking compared to Crusaders and the other religious T3 units.
• Cult of Cthulhu is just wrong to me; It's not Cthulhu. I'd go with "Old Ones"

Personally, I'd remove any tie to demons and explicit evil, and make it chaotic. Like you, an emphasis on Lunatics. RifE already has a Law-Chaos alignment axis, so it would work well. Hell, it's even planned.

 

[ProkhorZakharov]

• I agree (mostly) on the Asylum. I think a stronger Lunatic would fix that for the most part though.
• Stygians use metals because they otherwise are lacking compared to Crusaders and the other religious T3 units.
• Cult of Cthulhu is just wrong to me; It's not Cthulhu. I'd go with "Old Ones"

Personally, I'd remove any tie to demons and explicit evil, and make it chaotic. Like you, an emphasis on Lunatics. RifE already has a Law-Chaos alignment axis, so it would work well. Hell, it's even planned.

Even without metals the only difference between Stygians and Crusaders/Paramanders is that they lose medic 1 and demon slaying in exchange for water walking, and are demon instead of human. Making them start with Mutated could be interesting, and fits the chaos theme. I agree on the name.

 

[Valkrionn]

I'd remove demon rather than metals (make them more like better Drowns, rather than Demons), and start mutated with a Legendary Mutation (see the RifE blog for details on our mutation changes; Legendary Mutations are just special promotions).

 

[ProkhorZakharov]

Added more religions from FoL onwards.

 

[Sephi]

What I'd like to see is one modmod which is simpler, has fewer civilizations, and has an AI which can competently deal with the game. If people feel like they've experienced everything in this mod, they can find mods such as Wild Mana, RifE, and Orbis that add in new things to experience.

The key features of Wild Mana are improved AI and faster turns. New features are just part of the deal but many can be cancelled via gameoption. If you have the energy, go ahead and try to make the AI better by cutting some features/civs from the game. I doubt that will work but I'd love to see what you come up with.

 

[Valkrionn]

Council of Esus

Overall: I think the Council's status as a pseudo-religion makes them really messy and overly complicated. If you join CoE, some things say you're in it, and other things say you're not.

What I'd change: I'd make the Council a proper religion. It would still function in largely the same way as it does now. I'd give them the Svartalfar kidnap ability, as I feel it makes more sense for the Council than it does for the Elves, and the Council are slightly lacking in interesting things to do.

Honestly, I like CoE as a 'hidden' religion, but it doesn't really work. What we are planning to do in RifE is make it a Cult.

Basically, what this means is it will be both Religion (Cult of Esus) and Guild (Council of Esus), that move hand in hand. They can and will spread independently of each other, but when the two are combined you will receive the most benefits.

Of course, this relies on our plans to remake guilds: You will have guild "categories", only one guild of each category may be active for your civilization, and guilds function as lesser civilizations; Each one brings several UU's and UB's, as well as allowing various Equipment promotions to be purchased.

Fellowship of Leaves

Fawns: They're like Axemen, except they cost 50% more, can't use metals, and can't pillage. They're a bit faster, that's something, I guess.

Guardian of Nature: +1 per forest is ridiculous. I support the Wild Mana change reducing it to 0.25 .

Overall: The Fellowship seems, mechanically, to be a bit too closely tied to the Elves. Ancient Forested Cottages, Farms and Mines are great. Ancient forests themselves are pretty weak.

What I'd change: I'd make Fawns into Hunters that start with Woodsman I and don't get the -20% city attack penalty. This makes it much easier for them to get to level 4 in order to become Satyrs, and makes them actually worth building over Hunters. I'd allow Priests of the Leaves to cast Bloom on top of an existing improvement. This lets all civs following Fellowship eventually get an Ancient Forest economy going, but much more slowly than the Elves can.

In RifE, the Fawn is 2/3, Woodsman 1 + 2, no city attack penalty, 75% withdrawal, and Mind 2 (Charm). Not very strong, but still useful.

On Guardian of Nature, the change you mention was made in FF first, so it's in RifE as well. Didn't go as low as WM, however. Forests/Jungle/Kelp (aquatic feature) grant 0.5 , Ancient Forest and Kelp Forest (AF version of Kelp) grant 0.75 . With the Kelp Forest, the Lanun actually get a good use out of FoL.

I agree that it's a bit too closely tied, but we plan to change it slightly differently. Rather than focus on Bloom, your workers under FoL will gain a new build order (easy now; We can add build orders via promotion) for an Orchard improvement. Will be able to work a few new fruit resources, and will be buildable in all forests; This, and the Camp/Yaranga improvements will be enough IMO.

Runes of Kilmorph

Overall: Runes of Kilmorph is a fairly well-balanced religion. Nothing they do is especially exciting, but they fill their role.

What I'd change: I think Paramanders could use something to distinguish them from Crusaders and Champions, but I can't think of what that would be.

RoK is generally my first religion. Depending on the civ I may switch out, or I may not.

Paramanders could gain something based on metals/gems; I'm not sure what, though.

The Empyrean

Chalid Astrakein: This guy is absurd, or rather, Pillar of Fire and Crown of Flames are absurd.

Radiant Guard/Ratha: I don't like the Blinding Light spell (I'll explain why in the spells section). I especially don't like having large numbers of highly mobile Blinding Light casters supported by Vicars who can take out any assassins you send to try and stop them.

Vicar: Revelation would make more sense as a passive effect than as an active spell, although the Wild Mana auto-cast system more or less makes this a moot point.

What I'd change: I think The Empyrean, mechanically, needs to be overhauled completely. I'd replace their current truth-and-justice focus with a truth-and-knowledge focus based on magic. I'll describe it below.

In RifE, he only has Crown of Flames.

As for the rest of Empy... It's too war-based. In the lore, it is a peaceful, tolerant religion, that is just hard to represent in game. I'm thinking some kind of city-effect promo (In FF and RifE, units can grant various effects like happiness, culture, gold, etc, to cities within X range) on one of their units would be good; Probably remove the Rathas.

The Order

Basilica: 200 hammers is absurdly expensive compared to the 60 hammers required of a courthouse. +1 commander GPP isn't worth the extra 140 hammers, especially considering commander's aren't even very good Great People.

Prior: Your high priest units shouldn't be sitting around in cities oppressing the populace, they should be out on the battlefield stealing units with their awesome Command IV.

Overall: The Order seem a little unfocused. They've got a bunch of useful things, but nothing that really stands out and makes you say "I want to go Order".

What I'd change: I'd make Order a religion with a focus on going out and conquering or settling a lot of cities, and spreading the Order to all of them. I'd reduce Basilicas to 90 hammers. I'd make Social Order give a 30% reduction in city maintenance due to number of cities. I'd replace Unyielding Order with another spell, but I can't think of one.

Personally, I like Order. Granted, Great Commanders are far better in RifE, thanks to FF.

New Empyrean

Flavor: An order of mage-scholars dedicated to finding eternal truth.

Dies Diei: Same as before.

Temple of the Empyrean: As before, but also allows the building of Adepts. Gives +10% science instead of +10% production.

Vicar: Level 4+ Adepts can upgrade to Vicars, if they do they retain their normal arcane spellcasting abilities as well as divine spellcasting.

Luridus: Level 6+ Mages or Vicars can upgrade to Luridi.

Radiant Guard: Can cast Sanctify, not Blinding Light.

Ratha: Can cast Scorch, not Blinding Light.

Revelation: Deals 30% (max 100%) damage to all summoned units within 3 tiles as well as revealing invisible units and removing Hidden Nationality in that radius.

Crown of Flames: Deals 20% (max 40%) damage to all units in adjacent tiles. Destroys all summoned units in adjacent tiles. Grants all units in adjacent tiles the Silenced promotion (can be resisted, +20%): Cannot cast spells, wears off at the end of the owner's turn.

Pillar of Fire: Deals 30% (max 90%) damage to all units, allied or enemy, except Chalid, within 2 tiles (including Chalid's tile). Allied units not in this area cannot move into this area this turn. Basically, this retains the power of the Pillar, but also introduces a corresponding risk. You have to either accept that your own units are going to be damaged, or leave Chalid on his own, or bring plenty of healers.

I like your revised Crown of Flames and Pillar of Fire, but the rest isn't in keeping with the lore so I wouldn't go for it. Already described my personal preferences above.

 

[Tielby]

Fellowship of Leaves

Fawns: They're like Axemen, except they cost 50% more, can't use metals, and can't pillage. They're a bit faster, that's something, I guess.

The "Tip" that is relevant to this explains that their value comes from the fact that no building is needed to build them. (Funny that I keep referring to the "Tips".)

Overall: The Fellowship seems, mechanically, to be a bit too closely tied to the Elves. Ancient Forested Cottages, Farms and Mines are great. Ancient forests themselves are pretty weak.

Yeah, this is exactly the reason I avoid FoL (unless I'm elves) unless and until I have lumbermills built everywhere I want them. Ancient forest without lumbermills < forests with lumbermills, IMHO.

I'd allow Priests of the Leaves to cast Bloom on top of an existing improvement. This lets all civs following Fellowship eventually get an Ancient Forest economy going, but much more slowly than the Elves can.

I think that is a great idea!

 

[DaveGold]

Fawns: They're like Axemen, except they cost 50% more, can't use metals, and can't pillage. They're a bit faster, that's something, I guess.

Fawns promote to satyrs and the satyrs are potential game winners. They're one of the many features that the AI fails to use and you need to explore the game as a player to find them.

think Paramanders could use something to distinguish them from Crusaders and Champions, but I can't think of what that would be.

Paramanders and crusaders are disciple units instead of melee units which provides a few differences from champions. One difference in play is that they don't use weapons, which seems like a disadvantage until your enemies start casting rust every time you approach their cities.

The problem is, Lunatics are just weak, unreliable Stygian Guards.

You shouldn't forget that lunatics can be researched far earlier than stygian guards and have a few other perks, such as collateral damage and being upgraded from slaves. Like many other units they can be game winners when used early and poor when used late. Loyalty should perhaps still give some benefit in controlling enraged units, although perhaps not removing the risk entirely.