A comprehensive UU guide

Added the entry on War Chariots. Conquistadors and Impi are next.

If at any point I miss out on somebody in the credits, please let me know. You can pm me.
 
aelf said:
Added the entry on War Chariots. Conquistadors and Impi are next.

If at any point I miss out on somebody in the credits, please let me know. You can pm me.


I am not looking for credit so much as I subscibe to the Reaganesqe notion that there is no limit to what a person can acheive if they have no concern for who gets the credit. I'm just excited to see a nice complete work that will stand for some time and hopefully help some other players find a nice source of reference and give some pointers.

So to that, I say all real credit belongs to you, since you created and breathed the life into the thread! I hope it eventually can get added to the War Academy. That would be nice.
 
aelf said:
Added the entry on War Chariots. Conquistadors and Impi are next.

If at any point I miss out on somebody in the credits, please let me know. You can pm me.

You were very kind to give me credit, and I appreciate it.
I'm humble enough to say it isn't deserved, although I like it enough to not ask you to remove it :lol: .

One more thing.
When you'll go for redcoat entry, you really need to say how powerful a full load of those draftees is.
It's totally overpowered in vanilla, and still a really big advantage in warlords.
Even more so if you play churchill (protective!).
But I understand it's not yet the moment.
 
aelf said:
Egypt: War Chariot (Chariot)

The Egyptian War Chariot is an axeman on wheels with no City Raider promotions but has withdrawal chance.

<snip>

That said, I have found Flanking promotions a generally better choice when up against spears. Even with Shock, War Chariots have lower odds of winning, so you might as well increase their survival rate (which can be done better in vanilla due to the extra withdrawal chance). Flanking II also negates archers' first strikes, although Combat promotions generally help War Chariots more in dealing with archers.
War Chariots already have a basic immunity to first strike which is another reason why they are so overwhelming. That makes what you've written about flanking 2 superfluous :eek: The only reason I'd give a WC flanking is to get the sentry promotion, so only one or 2 ever get that. Also the knight which the WC upgrades to already has imunity to FS so that is not a good reason to go with flanking 1 and 2.

A WC is a good unit to give combat and medic to be the basic stack healer, which is another favourite use for me for one or two of them. Also an ideal unit to join your first GG to.

I think you should mention the importance of researching Horseback Riding for the stables which nicely gives them the important 2 promotions in combination with the barracks. So WCs with shock can be built. An important thing to notice is that the WC is a much better unit for most purposes that the HA despite costing only 25 hammers instead of the 60 the HA costs.

In its struggle against the spearman the low production cost of the WC with shock makes it a cost effective weapon for a war of attrition. If it takes 2 WC with shock to destroy one spearman, the first to die gallantly (small chance to win and 10% chance to withdraw) but seriously wound the spearman, and the second to win most often then we have spent 50 hammers to defeat 35 and still have 25 left. That is a good hammer trade in the early game.

I did a simple test of WC versus spear using the world builder and came up with the following results:
A WC with shock versus spear with combat 1 (in open and not fortified) has 21% chance of winning and 7% of withdraw. The second WC (assuming first lost or withdrew) has something like a 99% chance of winning and takes little or no damage. Obviously if the spearman was in terrain or fortified the chances would drop appreciably. However, in the open that is a clear 25 hammers (7% withdraw) for 35 hammers and means that enemy stacks defended by spearmen are very vulnerable.

The WC is such a good value unit that it can be used much later in the game than the normal chariot. Supported by catapults and trebuchets and other troops they can finish off damaged troops in the middle ages. Against longbows and crossbows that are damaged they are immune to FS and have a withdraw chance and are better value than HA since they don't get the -10% versus a city. Overall an incredible unit.
 
Good points for everything except this...

UncleJJ said:
I did a simple test of WC versus spear using the world builder and came up with the following results:
A WC with shock versus spear with combat 1 (in open and not fortified) has 21% chance of winning and 7% of withdraw. The second WC (assuming first lost or withdrew) has something like a 99% chance of winning and takes little or no damage.
The second WC will depend upon how much damage the spear took from the first one. I believe this is random. So, claims of 99% aren't valid. Correct?

Wodan
 
Wodan said:
Good points for everything except this...


The second WC will depend upon how much damage the spear took from the first one. I believe this is random. So, claims of 99% aren't valid. Correct?

Wodan
I only did 4 tests and they all gave me 99% for the second WC. The second WC always killed the spearman. I could be wrong, but I strongly suspect not. Feel free to try it yourself.

The point about WC is that they are cheaper than spears and faster and basically we can trade 1 WC for each spearman. For every spearman that gets lucky and kills 2 WC (possible but unlikely) we will get a few WCs that withdraw. I estimate that on average 1 WC with shock can be traded for 1 spearman as long as we have at least twice as many WCs

Also note that my exact words were "something like a 99% chance" and not a bald 99% claim. I consider that covers the variability you allude to.
 
Thanks for the pointers. I'll make amendments as soon as possible. Right now I have to go get some sleep soon.
 
Seeing as how I have recently decided (on a whim) to play a couple more games as Vikings, here are some assorted comments in the way of fine tuning. Edit, ignore, and/or integrate as you see fit, aelf. I'll probably be rambling.

aelf said:
Vikings: Berserk (Maceman)

Founding cities on the coast (or islands) obviously will make the most of your strengths. Most comments pertain to this case. If landlocked, then obviously the only real idiosyncratic benefits of the Vikings are the UU 10% vs cities and Amphib used for river assaults.

Obviously the UB is a priority for all coastal cities. Next, it is good to go for Masonry and then Metal Casting. Pick a good city with high production (such as your capitol) to build first the UB, then the Greal Lighthouse, and then the Colossus. It shouldn't be difficult to get these even on high skill level.

These wonders grant coast tiles with 2 food and 4 commerce. This is huge. You can quickly found cities, whip the UB, and totally ignore land tiles (and workers) for most of the game. These cities will quickly pay for themselves as well as the rest of your empire. Don't whip there until they start to reach health/happy limits, when you can selectively whip assorted buildings such as Library and Market. Meanwhile, your core cities will work the land tiles and are needed to churn out galleys, melee units for garrisons, and -- when available -- Berserks.

A good route to Berserks is through first Metal Casting (as described) and then Math, Currency, and Code of Laws. Many civs prioritize the religion path, but the alternative has some pretty attractive features such as better cash flow, easy access to Catapults, etc. Besides, an opportunistic Viking player can often get a shrine later because religions are usually founded in border, weak cities.

Before the Berserk becomes obsolete, be sure and mass upgrade all melee units to Berserks. The GL and Colossus easily give the funds to do this and it's fairly inexpensive in any case. Make sure it is done as you want as many units with the free Amphibious as possible. It's well worth the expense. Later on, you may or may not upgrade them -- to Grenadiers, Rifles, or Infantry -- but if you need them they are there.

When Berserks first become available, you should already have a number of galleys. Either quickly build or upgrade a number of Berserks, and choose your target. The neighbor who is lowest on score probably has lagged behind in research. Behind on research means weak defending units and easy pickings on those coastal cities. Get these cities while you can, as all too soon there will be fortified Longbows there, which will be tough if not impossible to take from the sea.

Early on, it might be a very good option to refuse Open Borders. Keeping the AIs isolated and unable to tech trade will give you a good target selection by the time you get Berserks. The slight negative to relations isn't a problem. You plan on warring most of the game anyway. All you really want is to keep your enemies properly "queued up", so that they don't gang up and fight you all together. In addition, your tech research path should give some really good opportunities to tech trade. Just don't trade critical techs away for techs which aren't necessary (such as most of those on the religious path).

Berserks can be upgraded down the Combat promotions, giving strong defensive units. These can be landed anywhere and probably can wander around as single units, pillaging at will. The AI doesn't compute very well the tactic of attacking with stronger unit purely to die and wound the defender, followed by a second unit to kill it. So, the AI will leave your single CIII Berserks alone despite that they're pillaging at will.

City Raider Berserks, however, are needed to take cities, especially those defended by Longbows. Build up their experience taking weak cities, then go for the tough nuts, but expect to take losses. Alternately, leave the tough cities for later when you have Amphibious Grenadiers and Rifles. There's nothing wrong with taking the weak cities now, and pillaging left and right. This will hamstring the AI and boost your empire at the same time. However, know when to stop and declare peace. It's important to preserve your Berserks and leave them alive to be upgraded.

Wodan
 
UncleJJ said:
I only did 4 tests and they all gave me 99% for the second WC. The second WC always killed the spearman. I could be wrong, but I strongly suspect not. Feel free to try it yourself.

The point about WC is that they are cheaper than spears and faster and basically we can trade 1 WC for each spearman. For every spearman that gets lucky and kills 2 WC (possible but unlikely) we will get a few WCs that withdraw. I estimate that on average 1 WC with shock can be traded for 1 spearman as long as we have at least twice as many WCs

Also note that my exact words were "something like a 99% chance" and not a bald 99% claim. I consider that covers the variability you allude to.
No worries.

Wodan
 
aelf said:
Thanks for the pointers. I'll make amendments as soon as possible. Right now I have to go get some sleep soon.
Isn't it something like 2am there? Go to bed! :)

Wodan
 
Wodan said:
Isn't it something like 2am there? Go to bed! :)

Wodan


It's just about 4:20 where I am.

Are my eyes decieving me or did you just put up a nicely detailed post on the Beserks?

My whole world is so upside down, now. :crazyeye:
 
drkodos said:
It's just about 4:20 where I am.

Are my eyes decieving me or did you just put up a nicely detailed post on the Beserks?

My whole world is so upside down, now. :crazyeye:
I shaved my goatee off.

Wodan
 
ps now we get to see who "gets" the obscure Star Trek / Southpark reference. :)
 
Wodan said:
ps now we get to see who "gets" the obscure Star Trek / Southpark reference. :)


The Halkans should be happy. Just don't use that little button behind the panel on me. But, if ever you need someone to help satisfy the needs of the Captain's woman, I am here for you.
 
DrKodos, just as I am getting used to your avatar, you change it again!

Aelf, great guide, some of it is fairly in depth, it is about time the forum get a guide like this! Keep up the good work. I look forward to the Impi entry!:D
 
Lucky Charms said:
DrKodos, just as I am getting used to your avatar, you change it again!

Aelf, great guide, some of it is fairly in depth, it is about time the forum get a guide like this! Keep up the good work. I look forward to the Impi entry!:D


As soon as I sense someone is getting comfortable with it, I change it. Last thing I need is for people to actually understand me. :lol:

And, this one is an homage to Wodan's postings.
 
Wodan, what a reversal from your previous attitude! :lol: Maybe you should drop your sig.

There's suddenly a lot of information to process, so forgive me if I misunderstand what you guys said. I'm definitely removing the bit about Flanking II giving WCs immunity to first strikes. However, from my own experience, Flanking II chariots are better off against entrenched spears. Even with a lot of Combat promotions on your WCs, once cities' defensive ratings have hit 40% and above, a fortified spear can cost quite a few of your nicely promoted WCs. Two dead is bad enough. I'd rather throw a few fresh Flanking WCs at it, with a chance that one or two may survive, before attacking with the Combat WCs. In the second Emperor Challenge, I've seen the odds a Combat V WC has against an entrenched Combat I spear and IIRC it was not good at all.

I'll hold off changing the bit about Flanking WCs (besides the immunity to first strikes statement) for now. I want to hear what you guys have to say about what I just said first.

About the Berserks, I'll take the bit about upgrading as many melee units to Berserks as possible. This definitely makes sense. I'm not sure about the Currency research path, though. Do you have time to build marketplaces? This sounds like the normal path to a peaceful medieval age, which is not what we want here. I'll also take the Rambo pillaging bit. The other bits are either already mentioned or are pretty general advice on playing Ragnar and not specific to the Berserk, so I don't think I'll include them.

Thanks for the pointers again, guys!

EDIT: Hmm... On second thoughts, what makes Combat Berserks better at pillaging than normal Combat macemen?
 
aelf said:
Wodan, what a reversal from your previous attitude! :lol: Maybe you should drop your sig.
Nah. I still think that Berserks could have been better implemented.

aelf said:
I'm not sure about the Currency research path, though. Do you have time to build marketplaces? This sounds like the normal path to a peaceful medieval age, which is not what we want here.
Markets give happiness in all those coast cities which are fueling your entire empire. The 25% gold is a cherry.

aelf said:
I'll also take the Rambo pillaging bit. The other bits are either already mentioned or are pretty general advice on playing Ragnar and not specific to the Berserk, so I don't think I'll include them.
good point

aelf said:
EDIT: Hmm... On second thoughts, what makes Combat Berserks better at pillaging than normal Combat macemen?
Hmm. Nothing. Again, good point.

I do, however, still think it important to point out that you do rarely if ever want to throw your Berserks at cities with cultural/hills/walls defenses and Longbows. Take what cities you can (or raze them) with your CR Berserks, and then send them home, use as garrisons, or declare war on a 2nd AI and go have fun over there.

Wodan
 
Wodan said:
I do, however, still think it important to point out that you do rarely if ever want to throw your Berserks at cities with cultural/hills/walls defenses and Longbows.

Already done that :)
 
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