A comprehensive UU guide
- Thread starter aelf
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aelf
Ashen One
FuRRie said:
Yeah, didn't I mention it?
aelf
Ashen One
Added an entry on Skirmishers. Hwacha needs more time to write about and I don't have enough time now. Will add the entry on that next.
aelf
Ashen One
Added the role of stables to the Camel Archer entry and cleaned up the Skirmisher entry.
Wodan
Deity
This is Re: Keshiks with Explorersaelf said:
A better idea might be to spend your first general on an Axe and get him to Mobility and/or Commando. You're started on the way with the free Combat 1.
I'm sure Aelf appreciates the thought but you get the "bad poster" award for quoting 3 screens of text along with a 1 line reply.Mongolia said:This is all extremely enlightening and correct, it will be of much help to me when I play those Civilizations!
Wodan
ps Sorry I'm sarky today
drkodos
Emperor
Some really good stuff in this thread. I am both happy and impressed to see someone tackling this monster of a job.
Of course, I say that only because you say nice things about the Beserkers.
I am looking forward to the Impi and hope you do not mind that I may even chime in?
Of course, I say that only because you say nice things about the Beserkers.
I am looking forward to the Impi and hope you do not mind that I may even chime in?
aelf
Ashen One
Wodan, the Commando/Mobility axe idea is a bit esoteric, don't you think? I wouldn't do that. Except maybe when I'm extremely bored 
Anyway, for those of you who want to, sure - Impi, Conquistadors or anything. Give me your ideas
I'll check it out when I'm writing the entry on Hwacha. But I have a feeling the basic idea behind it is the fact that Hwachas are axemen with collateral damage, right?
Anyway, for those of you who want to, sure - Impi, Conquistadors or anything. Give me your ideas
Jet said:
I'll check it out when I'm writing the entry on Hwacha. But I have a feeling the basic idea behind it is the fact that Hwachas are axemen with collateral damage, right?
Played extensively with the Aztecs yesterday... I know the limitations of the Jags have been covered in different forums, but I think three points are worth highlighting especially:
- If you happen to find copper near the starting location, the Jaguar is more or less worthless... researching IW to get the extra 10% CR and Woodsman I promotion (while forgoing 50% bonus vs. Melee) is simply not worth it, especially since IW takes a long while to research and postpones the rush
- An axeman rush is likley to be more successful than a Jag rush anyways - by the time you have CRI axemen up and running most opponents have unpromoted archers. By the time Jags come around, they often have promoted archers, chariots/horses or axemen
- If up against a protective AI - forget it. Even with barracks (Power I, Woodsman I, CRI or Cover) Jaguars simply don't stand a chance against fortified archers with CD2, Drill 1...
So - I had high hopes for trying Jags on the rush in warlords... ended up on a continent with 3 opponents - the closest two were China and Arabia... to be blunt - there was simply no way to take anything with the Jags without strong cat support...
/Andreas
- If you happen to find copper near the starting location, the Jaguar is more or less worthless... researching IW to get the extra 10% CR and Woodsman I promotion (while forgoing 50% bonus vs. Melee) is simply not worth it, especially since IW takes a long while to research and postpones the rush
- An axeman rush is likley to be more successful than a Jag rush anyways - by the time you have CRI axemen up and running most opponents have unpromoted archers. By the time Jags come around, they often have promoted archers, chariots/horses or axemen
- If up against a protective AI - forget it. Even with barracks (Power I, Woodsman I, CRI or Cover) Jaguars simply don't stand a chance against fortified archers with CD2, Drill 1...
So - I had high hopes for trying Jags on the rush in warlords... ended up on a continent with 3 opponents - the closest two were China and Arabia... to be blunt - there was simply no way to take anything with the Jags without strong cat support...
/Andreas
dime said:
Iron Working too far away? Use an EARLY Oracle Slingshot to pickup IW and build a temple and asisgn a Priest to Pop a GP to lightbulb Theology for early lvl 3 units (5XP)
Early Oracle Slingshot meaning lots of Food and Hills being worked, no chopping because you don't have BW yet
The point of the early Jag rush is SPEED, imagine a chariot rush on steriods, they have 5.5 str and no one can touch them when defending in forest.
If you want Str, Go play rome and their Prats.
Basically the Jags 1st Promotion (note this is after the 2.08 Patch) is Woodsman 2. If you start off near the Equator where there's lots of Jungle with an AI close by they have no chance of countering. You'd capture the 1st City within 1-2 turns, a capital within 3 turns Assuming you stacked your army outside their cultural broaders.
Once you have Theology, switch to theocracy and attack another AI with lvl 3 Jags usually they have (W1&2 + CR1) and rush the 2nd AI untill I capture their Capital or untill my economy Stars suffering.
Prot AIs or Cities on a hill? Means you need more numbers, 3 Jags for every archer. Prot AND on a hill? 4 Jags for every Archer(but you might get lucky and A lot fo Jags will Survive)
Jags are cheap anywayz it's not very Hard to rush them and unlike Axes where you have to hookup A resource eg- Copper, Jags are resource-less you you can use those few Turns to rush them faster and attack the AI earlier.
I sometimes divert my research to AH for Chariots to Counter Axes when I know my Jags have no Forest Defence near a City and they have copper/iron hooked up.
Kniteowl,
all good points... I guess I need to make sure I have more numbers... I am very comfortable winning at Prince on the moment and looking to move up to Monarch, however I usually win relying more on building than warring (often through Diplomatic or Space wins) and thus am looking to succeed with a more war-based approach... hence, I've tried playing Egypt (with great success), Japan (with no success - three games in a row with isolated start on continents... sure, could chose Pangea, but prefer continents) and now dabbling with Aztecs... I guess, I am used to warring from a point of massive tech advantage, which inevitably leads to wars with limited losses... hence, the idea of overwhelming numbers and "acceptable" large losses is somewhat unusual to me - though a good point.
Thanks for the idea of the early slingshot btw... I'd perviously foregone the religious track to b-line for Iron - however, it'd obviously be faster (since also missing mining) to get to priesthood and build the oracle and if lucky there'd be a good chance at picking up a religion on the way... so really like the approach.
/Andreas
all good points... I guess I need to make sure I have more numbers... I am very comfortable winning at Prince on the moment and looking to move up to Monarch, however I usually win relying more on building than warring (often through Diplomatic or Space wins) and thus am looking to succeed with a more war-based approach... hence, I've tried playing Egypt (with great success), Japan (with no success - three games in a row with isolated start on continents... sure, could chose Pangea, but prefer continents) and now dabbling with Aztecs... I guess, I am used to warring from a point of massive tech advantage, which inevitably leads to wars with limited losses... hence, the idea of overwhelming numbers and "acceptable" large losses is somewhat unusual to me - though a good point.
Thanks for the idea of the early slingshot btw... I'd perviously foregone the religious track to b-line for Iron - however, it'd obviously be faster (since also missing mining) to get to priesthood and build the oracle and if lucky there'd be a good chance at picking up a religion on the way... so really like the approach.
/Andreas
dime said:
No Problem BTW the Early Oracle City with lots of Hills and Food will be able to Mass Produced Jags Quite Easily right after you complete the Oracle. If you complete BW earlier then the Oracle 1 or 2 chops should be enough.
So number's isn't much of a problem it really depends on enviroment, location, timing and you could be near the poles and be effective against the AI using this Tactic as long as you use the Forest Effectively to move your Jags quickly. As long as your not near a huge Patch of Deserts, the Jag Rush should be Quite effective. I try to time my war with the completion of Alphabet So after I capture the AI Capital I'll negociate for Peace and Extort a Few techs from the AI.
aelf
Ashen One
Bjorn190 said:
I've suffered enough bad luck in Civ4 to know that luck is a big factor and you can't always trust the combat odds. But, in theory, you're right.
Regarding Jaguars, do you guys think there's anything I need to add to the entry?
aelf said:
I don't think so. kniteowl's strat is good and strong, but it relies on the oracle, which we don't really need for a jaguar rush. It may be a good option, but not in every situation. The whole point of jaguar rush is to not rely on any gamble. + it's very clear right now and although it is true that with copper around you won't need the jaguars a lot, it's also true that building a strong production second city without checking for copper is a solid rushing key. Building barracks takes a while, growing to be able to pop rush takes a while too. Researching IW in this time is certainly not delaying much.
aelf
Ashen One
cabert said:
Personally, I wouldn't build the Oracle just for IW anyway. Seems like a waste of not just the wonder, but also hammers that could be better spent building a settler and maybe another worker. More cities and more farms = better pop rushing prospects.
aelf said:
If It Means Sacrificing the Oracle to capture an AI Capital I'm all for it. A captured Capital is worth more then a settler or a worker in my books. Researching to IW takes too long I'd Rather Research Worker tech or Alphabet instead.
Whether it's a Gamble... I don't know Your going for a VERY EARLY ORACLE RUSH I generally get it before writing and pottery so no COL or MC Slingshot. Plus Having Myst as a Starting Tech mean your ahead of most AI in getting the Oracle.
The only excpetion where I wouldn't go for the Jag Rush is where There's very Few Forest and Jungle between me and my AI Prey, at that situation I'd normally go for an AXE RUSH IF I have Copper.
