A Dutch Civ?

[Meglomania]

Well, certainly the Dutch nation was very important historically, as was Portugal. However, to my mind it's questionable whether all the different European countries really represent distinct civilizations. The French and Spanish are really just Romanized Celts and the English a mix of the same with Germans.

Well, that's a very subjective arguement, as that then excludes America from the game. Also, you could then continue to take it back leaving only the ancient first recognisable civilisations, or just some wandering african tribal primitives. My take is that a distinct civilisation is created when a seperate national identity develops from the founding culture.

The Dutch, for sure they qualify in my book, they definitely have had there time in history as a true world power.

Additional - That list looks very good, but I really think you have to have creative as one of the traits.

 

[maartena]

Okay... fixed Where do you live anyways?

 

[Totibbs]

Mine hometown is in it too, so I agree as well
But please remember that Belgium is seperated from Holland less then 200 years ago. Just for Sid and his team to find out what to do with it.

Den Bosch is more common speech. Official it is: 's Hertogenbosch
And Jeroen Bosch is an underrated painter. Maybe a great artist as well.

 

[yvovandoorn]

Another prob is Anton van Leeuwenhoek... I swear I have seen his name pop saying he was born in a far away land and/or in a city name during game play with Civ IV...

 

[Roland Johansen]

As a totally unbiased Dutch person, I would like to see the Dutch in an expansion pack.

 

[WillemIV]

We also need a global soccer competition in civ 4 so be sure to inlclude these players/team:

The tournament winner should get +10 happy faces.

 

[BlueStar]

I'm not one but I voted for them-as far as america being in the game I think some civs are in because of their status as empires-and like it or not america sort of is one-as for Mali-political correctness? Whats that got to do with it-if people don't walk out of africa in the first place there are no europeans or americans or any body else-in that world all the Civ countries would be African.And remember the Dutch empire and all the others were built on the backs of people from around the world. Now here's a dumb american question-whats with the mutiple names-if its the Netherlands than what is Holland-and why are people from there Dutch and not Netherlanders? I've allways wondered.

 

[logical_psycho]

Okay... fixed Where do you live anyways?

Zoetermeer.

 

[logical_psycho]

I'm not one but I voted for them-as far as america being in the game I think some civs are in because of their status as empires-and like it or not america sort of is one-as for Mali-political correctness? Whats that got to do with it-if people don't walk out of africa in the first place there are no europeans or americans or any body else-in that world all the Civ countries would be African.And remember the Dutch empire and all the others were built on the backs of people from around the world. Now here's a dumb american question-whats with the mutiple names-if its the Netherlands than what is Holland-and why are people from there Dutch and not Netherlanders? I've allways wondered.

Yeah, a lot of developed countries used to have colonies and built up their own wealth by exploiting the people there. As a matter of fact India, which is a civilization in the game, was a British colony for a long time. Also, the place that is now known as New York was once owned by the Dutch and the name was "New Amsterdam". Some time in history it was traded for Surinam with the British and renamed to "New York". So when you look at it, it is practically impossible to make a game like civilization, with clear different parties over a 6000 year timespan, without altering historic elements a bit here and there.


I will try to answer your other 2 questions as well. Holland and the Netherlands... both words are often being used to refer to the country. The Netherlands is the official name of the entire country, including the Antilles I believe, but I'm not sure about that. Holland is actually only 2 provinces in the west of the country, but the word Holland is often used to refer to the country as a whole.


Why we're called "Dutch" in English language also still puzzles me. When we refer to Dutch people we say "Nederlanders", and in Dutch the Netherlands is written like "Nederland"... so that makes a whole lot more sense. We were probably mistaken for Germans some time in history, who call themselves "Deutsch". Dutch people look a whole lot better than Germans though, so it puzzles me how we ever got mixed up like that!

 

[lawine]

i would take a small issue with that list, and that's in the official country name. remember, the netherlands was NOT a monarchy during it's golden age, it was founded as a REPUBLIC (the first modern one), called the Republic of Seven United Netherlands. (allthough there's 12 now), so i wouldn't call it a kingdom (or a republic, but simply the netherlands).

There's some more confusion about the name btw. Throughout history there have been a number of names used for the area known as the netherlands, here they are:

Belgium (in roman times)
Germania Inferior (in roman times)
Batavia (in roman times)
The Lowlands
The Netherlands
Holland
The United Provinces


which reminds me of 2 pieces of satire i once read.

"The UN has decreed that holland's inability to pick a single name by which to be known is exceedingly annoying and is henceforth to be known as the country filled with people who can't decide on a single name"

"Did you know that the Netherlands and Holland are the same thing?! As newly appointed prime-minister i ofcourse immediately demanded that Holland remove it's forces from the Netherlands, if they don't, we'll send a military intervention force."

 

[lawine]

i don't really understand why there are so many votes against, haven't these people ever attended a history class?

 

[Rincewiend]

Yeah, a lot of developed countries used to have colonies and built up their own wealth by exploiting the people there. As a matter of fact India, which is a civilization in the game, was a British colony for a long time. Also, the place that is now known as New York was once owned by the Dutch and the name was "New Amsterdam". Some time in history it was traded for Surinam with the British and renamed to "New York". So when you look at it, it is practically impossible to make a game like civilization, with clear different parties over a 6000 year timespan, without altering historic elements a bit here and there.


I will try to answer your other 2 questions as well. Holland and the Netherlands... both words are often being used to refer to the country. The Netherlands is the official name of the entire country, including the Antilles I believe, but I'm not sure about that. Holland is actually only 2 provinces in the west of the country, but the word Holland is often used to refer to the country as a whole.


Why we're called "Dutch" in English language also still puzzles me. When we refer to Dutch people we say "Nederlanders", and in Dutch the Netherlands is written like "Nederland"... so that makes a whole lot more sense. We were probably mistaken for Germans some time in history, who call themselves "Deutsch". Dutch people look a whole lot better than Germans though, so it puzzles me how we ever got mixed up like that!

I'm new here, i'm Dutch...
Hello...

From Wikipedia:

The word Dutch comes from the old Germanic word theodisk, meaning 'of the people', 'vernacular' as opposed to official, i.e. Latin or later French. Theodisk in modern German has become deutsch and in Dutch has become the two forms: duits, meaning German, and diets meaning something closer to Dutch but no longer in general use (see the diets article). Theodisk survives as tedesco ("German") in modern Italian.

The English word Dutch has also changed with time. It was only in the early 1600s, with growing cultural contacts and the rise of an independent country, that the modern meaning arose, i.e., 'designating the people of the Netherlands or their language'. Prior to this, the meaning was more general and could refer to any German-speaking area or the languages there (including the current Germany, Austria, and Switzerland as well as the Netherlands). For example:

William Caxton (c.1422-1491) wrote in his Prologue to his Aeneids in 1490 that an old English text was more like to Dutche than English. In his notes, Professor W.F. Bolton makes clear that this word means German in general rather than Dutch.
Peter Heylyn, Cosmography in four books containing the Chronography and History of the whole world, Vol. II (London, 1677: 154) contains "...the Dutch call Leibnitz," adding that Dutch is spoken in the parts of Hungary adjoining to Germany.
To this day, descendants of German settlers in Pennsylvania are known as the "Pennsylvania Dutch".
Today some speakers resent the name "Dutch", because of its common root with the name "Deutsch", that is, German

 

[AnsarWarrior]

I think The Dutch should be in, bring them on.

 

[King Ash]

i would take a small issue with that list, and that's in the official country name. remember, the netherlands was NOT a monarchy during it's golden age, it was founded as a REPUBLIC (the first modern one), called the Republic of Seven United Netherlands. (allthough there's 12 now), so i wouldn't call it a kingdom (or a republic, but simply the netherlands).

Yeah, a Republic headed by a Stadhouder (officially a title indicating a replacement of the monarch), a position which was very similar to a king (Maurice, son of William of Orange, started the tradition that the Stadhouder led the army). The seat of Stadhouder even was hereditary.

Officially the Netherlands was a Republic (unique in the European world) but in practice strong Stadhouders were practically kings.

And yes, being Dutch I think they should be in.

 

[ngin]

Yeah, a lot of developed countries used to have colonies and built up their own wealth by exploiting the people there. As a matter of fact India, which is a civilization in the game, was a British colony for a long time. Also, the place that is now known as New York was once owned by the Dutch and the name was "New Amsterdam". Some time in history it was traded for Surinam with the British and renamed to "New York". So when you look at it, it is practically impossible to make a game like civilization, with clear different parties over a 6000 year timespan, without altering historic elements a bit here and there.

yeah thats true..and funny when you tell americans that cause a lot of the time they dont know and are really surprised.
also parts of newyork where named by the dutch after ducth cities like Brooklyn (breukelen) or Harlem (Haarlem)..and some more that i cant think of.
wallstreet (that probably had a different name at the time) was in fact the fort that protected the city when the ducth owned newyork.
after the ducth sold it to the britsh (and later became part of the newlyfounded usa) this was a good place to store the towns money..later banks/ compagnys sprouted besides that and it became wall street (today the most expsensive street in the world to hire a building)
the guy who traded it over surinam (from wich the whole country doesnt even generate 10% of the money newyork does) should be beaten with a stick (-:

 

[AceChilla]

We should be working on a mod to put them in. Now I wanna help as much as I can, but I haven't modded anything ever.

The characteristisch Maarenta put on look like a real good start. The most difficult hing is obviously the leaderhead, and putting in Unique Units (maybe wonders too). But maybe their is some graphical genius out here who would like to help us with that.

I think Im going to start a thread in the mod sections, based on Maartena's stuff to try and get this going

 

[ngin]

I posted this in another thread, I tried to be as complete as possible.

I am, however, not in the position (timewise) and certainly not able graphicwise to put it into a project.

But if anyone wants to take a shot at it, here's some info:

nice post!

but ihave 2 things...
ducth preat ppl are allready ingame...i saw Rembrandt van Rijn and Anton van Leeuwenhoek allready beeing born in the game (not in any of my cities )-:

and id like it soo much if my hometown was included..and it has all the reason to.
i live in monnickendam (10 km from amsterdam) at the ijselmeer that used to be the zuiderzee.
my town is there since for exactlly 750yrs (we had a HUGE 3 week festival last summer to celibrate this)..and it played a big role in dutch history 1600/1700 ...
after holland was under influence of spain some cities where "koningsgezind" like amsterdam (that basicly ment they accepted the spanish autority over holland, they accepted the spanish king) and some werent like monnickendam.
it was like that for a long time (80 yr war i believe) and amsterdam and my home town are only 10 km appart..and since a lot of ships had to pas past monnickendam to get to amsterdam (monnickendam had an big harbour at the time) theres has been a lot of (sea)battles here..and in all that time amsterdam(spain) never occupied monnickendam.
becuase of this some famous ducth golden age generals are from my town like Cornelis Dirkzoon.
oh yeah i just remembered..i quess all u dutch ppl know the slag om de zuiderzee? (desicive battle between spain (and dutch/spanish cities) and the free dutch (leaded by willem van oranje at the time i quess)...that was right in front of my hometown...and monnickendam played a large role in it.

...but i quess this is not so intersesting for all u guys, only for ppl of my hometown (from which im positive none are on this board)
still if u like civ games ur bound to find history interesting

 

[ngin]

We should be working on a mod to put them in. Now I wanna help as much as I can, but I haven't modded anything ever.

The characteristisch Maarenta put on look like a real good start. The most difficult hing is obviously the leaderhead, and putting in Unique Units (maybe wonders too). But maybe their is some graphical genius out here who would like to help us with that.

I think Im going to start a thread in the mod sections, based on Maartena's stuff to try and get this going

i think the 2 leaderheads are very well chosen...
willem van oranje (willem de zwijger he was called also cause he was a good negotiator) really represents the dutch golden age.

wilhelmina is (maybe after our queen beatrix) the most well known dutch queen from more modern times, and she certainly led holland trough a more turbulent time then her daughter beatrix did.
i wouldnt wanna bring up the behaviour of the dutch government during wo2 like maartena did cause theres mixed feelings about that (some/a lot of ppl feel the dutch government (and wilhelmina) fled to england much too soon leaving their citizens to the mercy of the germans.

 

[AceChilla]

i think the 2 leaderheads are very well chosen...
willem van oranje (willem de zwijger he was called also cause he was a good negotiator) really represents the dutch golden age.

wilhelmina is (maybe after our queen beatrix) the most well known dutch queen from more modern times, and she certainly led holland trough a more turbulent time then her daughter beatrix did.
i wouldnt wanna bring up the behaviour of the dutch government during wo2 like maartena did cause theres mixed feelings about that (some/a lot of ppl feel the dutch government (and wilhelmina) fled to england much too soon leaving their citizens to the mercy of the germans.

Ow yeah, I agree we should use those two leaders. But I just wanted to point out it's really difficult to mod in different leaderheads as it requires real proffesional graphical skills. I dont think any modder created different leaderheads already. So that would be the most difficult job in creating a mod.

So we should use existing leaderheads to represent Willem and Wilhelmina in the meantime. Now which leaderheads thats already in the game look like Willem van Oranje, and Wilhelmina? Any ideas ?

 

[lawine]

Yeah, a Republic headed by a Stadhouder (officially a title indicating a replacement of the monarch), a position which was very similar to a king (Maurice, son of William of Orange, started the tradition that the Stadhouder led the army). The seat of Stadhouder even was hereditary.

Officially the Netherlands was a Republic (unique in the European world) but in practice strong Stadhouders were practically kings.

And yes, being Dutch I think they should be in.

uhm, no, not really. It was ruled by the states-general, the stadthouder was more akin to a prime-minister, the seat of stadthouder was NOT hereditary.