A Dutch Civ?

[lawine]

i think the 2 leaderheads are very well chosen...
willem van oranje (willem de zwijger he was called also cause he was a good negotiator) really represents the dutch golden age.

actually willem of orange died before the country was even officially formed and quite some time before the golden age, so no...he doesn't represent the golden age. Johan de Wit would be a better representation of the golden age, he's generally regarded to be the greatest statesmen of the country.

 

[King Ash]

i think the 2 leaderheads are very well chosen...
willem van oranje (willem de zwijger he was called also cause he was a good negotiator) really represents the dutch golden age.

Either him or his son Maurice are suitable as leaders. Wilhelmina is too obscure I think.
Maurice became famous in Euro warfare because he revolutionized the formation of musketeers. He thought up a strategy later used and refined by the far more famous Swedish king Gustav Adolf in the religious wars of the 17th century.
William of Orange was more a statesman then a militairy leader.
I'm not sure what traits they would have though.

 

[King Ash]

actually willem of orange died before the country was even officially formed and quite some time before the golden age, so no...he doesn't represent the golden age. Johan de Wit would be a better representation of the golden age, he's generally regarded to be the greatest statesmen of the country.

?

The country wasn't acknowleged till 1648 with the Peace of Munster (which also ended the religious wars in Germany).
The Dutch golden age started right before the 17th century, it was during the 80 years war that mainly the provinces of Holland and Zeeland gained incredible wealth (mainly due to the influx of Protestant/Jewish wealthy merchants from Antwerp).

 

[lawine]

yeah thats true..and funny when you tell americans that cause a lot of the time they dont know and are really surprised.
also parts of newyork where named by the dutch after ducth cities like Brooklyn (breukelen) or Harlem (Haarlem)..and some more that i cant think of.
wallstreet (that probably had a different name at the time) was in fact the fort that protected the city when the ducth owned newyork.
after the ducth sold it to the britsh (and later became part of the newlyfounded usa) this was a good place to store the towns money..later banks/ compagnys sprouted besides that and it became wall street (today the most expsensive street in the world to hire a building)
the guy who traded it over surinam (from wich the whole country doesnt even generate 10% of the money newyork does) should be beaten with a stick (-:

Albany used to be fort orange, and there were other settlements throughout the north-east american coast and along the hudson river. Wallstreet was actually not built at a fort, but along a defensive wall built to keep out the english. incidentally, at the time, trading it for surinam was a good move. New Amsterdam (new york) wasn't nearly as profitable as surinam was at the time (plantations, and later bauxite mining). The english captured new amsterdam, a year later we recaptured it, and then we traded it for surinam. One could argue that it would have been best had we kept it, pointing to the importance of new york today, but had we kept it, things might have turned out completely difference. While at the time new york was allready pretty important and becoming increasingly moreso, it is doubtful that it would grow to it's current importance if it was part of an overseas empire instead of a domestic one (the US). It's also quite possible that new york would have joined the other colonies in the US in it's rebellion, in which case there would be no dutch aid (weapons and ships) to the continental army. Alternatively holland could've aided the continental army more directly than it did since it now had a close port aswell as fortresses around, this might lead england to declare war on holland directly, as opposed to simply cancelling it's defensive pact with holland (which would allow napoleon free reign in the netherlands btw)

 

[lawine]

?

The country wasn't acknowleged till 1648 with the Peace of Munster (which also ended the religious wars in Germany).
The Dutch golden age started right before the 17th century, it was during the 80 years war that mainly the provinces of Holland and Zeeland gained incredible wealth (mainly due to the influx of Protestant/Jewish wealthy merchants from Antwerp).

Willem of Orange died in 1584, 3 years after the official declaration of independence of the Republic of seven united netherlands. Well before the golden age. The fact that spain didn't recognize our independence didn't change the fact that we were. And i wouldn't say mainly, certainly it was a big part of it, but the exploits of the V.O.C (United East India Company), and to a far lesser degree the W.I.C (West india company) were of far greater importance in generating both wealth and power for the Republic. Privateering also added to the republic's wealth (think of Piet Heins famous capture of the spanish silverfleet)

 

[King Ash]

And i wouldn't say mainly, certainly it was a big part of it, but the exploits of the V.O.C (United East India Company), and to a far lesser degree the W.I.C (West india company)

Someone had to pay for the fleet.
Guess who?
It always boils down to who pays for the bills.
ps WIC was much later.

I also wouldn't say we were fully independant before 1648. Yes, other countries acknowledge the nothern provinces of the Netherlands were defacto autonomous. But to view those provinces as fully soverein? I'm not sure the nothern provinces themselves considered themselves fully sovereign.
As I recall, the rulers of those provinces actively sought a new monarch in the German states to rule them (under the terms of the ruling elite in the provinces of course).
Also, not all provinces/cities which eventually formed the Republic signed the Union of Utrecht (declaration of autonomy from Spain). And some provinces/cities that did sign the Union eventually remained under Spanish control.

 

[lawine]

Someone had to pay for the fleet.
Guess who?
It always boils down to who pays for the bills.
ps WIC was much later.

I also wouldn't say we were fully independant before 1648. Yes, other countries acknowledge the nothern provinces of the Netherlands were defacto autonomous. But to view those provinces as fully soverein? I'm not sure the nothern provinces themselves considered themselves fully sovereign.
As I recall, the rulers of those provinces actively sought a new monarch in the German states to rule them (under the terms of the ruling elite in the provinces of course).
Also, not all provinces/cities which eventually formed the Republic signed the Union of Utrecht (declaration of autonomy from Spain). And some provinces/cities that did sign the Union eventually remained under Spanish control.

ofcourse they viewed themselves as sovereign, that is, after spain refused their demands. they were at first perfectly willing to cede that spain had a valid claim, but what with the inquisition and such, independence was inevitable. the republic almost immediately started excercising a great deal of power across the world (centered around the interests of trade). The fact that it was still at war with spain over lands that rightfully belonged to the republic does not mean it wasn't an independent sovereign state. When holland rose to power, spain's power decline and declined. Refusing to acknowledge our independence didn't change anything, our independence was allready a fact. Incidentally, the treaty of utrecht was *not* in fact the declaration of independence, it is seen as the founding of the united provinces and the unification of the northern states. The official declaration of independence came two years later and was callled the Oath of Abjuration.

The United Provinces first tried to choose their own lord, and they asked the Duke of Anjou (sovereign from 1581-1583) to rule them. Later, after the assassination of William of Orange (July 10, 1584), Henry III of France and Elizabeth I of England both declined the offer of sovereignty. However, the latter agreed to turn the United Provinces into a protectorate of England (Treaty of Nonsuch, 1585), and sent the Earl of Leicester as governor-general. This was not a success, and in 1588 the provinces became a Republic.

 

[lawine]

Someone had to pay for the fleet.
Guess who?
It always boils down to who pays for the bills.
ps WIC was much later.

Who do you think? The V.O.C ofcourse. They made more money than any corporation in the history of the planet. It was richer and more powerful than most countries.

 

[Arrandir]

We also need a global soccer competition in civ 4 so be sure to inlclude these players/team:

The tournament winner should get +10 happy faces.

Can't see Roy Makaay in that

pic.http://www.fcb.website.pl/grafika/makaay/makaay_roy4.jpg

 

[ngin]

We also need a global soccer competition in civ 4 so be sure to inlclude these players/team:

The tournament winner should get +10 happy faces.

and +100 drunk population

 

[magritte]

Now I understand my confusion. I was thinking of a wholly different William of Orange--the one who married Mary and became the King of England after the glorious revolution of 1689.

I thought the Netherlands won their independence from the Spanish in 1607, although Spain tried to get it back during the 30 years war.

 

[lawine]

and +100 drunk population

we're not finnish.