A Few .25 Observations

[Sarisin]

I guess this is a mix of possible bugs, balance issues, BTS anomalies and you-name-its. I've played at least 15 games of.25k or l. I was not able to read or post in this forum for awhile, so please bear with me if something I write has been mentioned before. Your comments are welcome and appreciated.

1. Bear Explosion. In prior versions we had the Wolf Pack and the Wolf Explosion. Anyone else notice that the Bear has replaced the Wolf in .25? In most of my games I have been unable to capture a single Wolf while the map is loaded with Bears. I think it is still a good idea to give the Happiness for the Dancing Bear, but how about re-instating Happiness for the Wolf Pen?

2. HN Issues. I think there is still some wackiness associated with Hidden Nation units. Why is it another civ's unit, like a Worker, can land on the same tile as my HN Curley and nothing happens? Yet, when I land on the same tile as the Worker, he is killed (not captured)? Another issue is the ungodly healing time necessary for HN units. My HN Curley has 7.0 strength. In a battle he is damaged to 5.7 strength. Why does it take 11 turns for him to heal to 7.0 strength again? It doesn't seem to matter that much if he is in Neutral or Hostile (he is HN???) territory. A unit with the Medic promotion really helps, but I still don't understand why HN units take so long to heal.

3. Fled vs. Withdrew. OK, what's the difference between these two terms? I see some units fleeing while others withdraw. FEAR is not involved. It doesn't seem to make any difference whether the unit is defending or attacking or the type of unit. I've had mounted units, as you might expect, but also Elephants.

4. Spawn Rate. I lost an Epic game in turn 13. Yes, it would fall under the category of bad luck, I suppose. Stupidly, I went for a couple of goodie huts rather than a Ruin just outside my borders. on turn 7 a Barb Lizardman appeared to guard the Ruin. No way to kill him with a Scout. I left my Warrior at home to defend, but it did no good. On turns 11, 12, and 13 (yes, 3 turns in a row) the Ruin spawned a Barb Lizardman. All three headed straight for Cahir Abbey. I was surprised my Warrior with only a Defender promotion survived the first two attacks. One more attack and it was Game Over. Can this spawn rate be slowed down, or, just chalk it up to bad luck?

5. Random Events. I guess I kinda like this new feature in FFH2. However, if possible, I think more events need to be added. The reason I say this is because in one of my games I had 7 mining disasters (explosions, poisonous gases, etc.) in only about 20 turns. Yes, they are random, and, again, I suppose more bad luck. But, I only had 3-4 mines in my two cities. Wouldn't adding more events to the list reduce the chances of getting hit over and over again with the same 'random' events?

6. Great Persons Assisting Tech Research. I think this might have been explained before, but I still don't get it. I usually play Einion Logos/Elohim and with the Philosophical trait and after building a Pagan Temple, I can start getting Great Prophets early in the game. That first Great Prophet will let me research Philosophy if I want. Makes sense, I guess, let's do it. However, my next Great Prophet will help me research Priesthood???? This baffles me. I have Mysticism, Hunting, and Mining. Why can't the Great Prophet let me found Fellowship of Leaves or Runes of Kilmorph by researching their techs. Does it make sense to research Priesthood before you have a Religion? I don't think so (although with the Elohim you can then build Monks).

I am pretty sure other civs are able to use that Great Prophet to found one of the early religions (OO would be included too if you had Fishing), but why not the Elohim? In other words, it seems to be civ-specific as to what tech.that Great Person will assist you with. Maybe this is one reason why the elves always found FOL and the dwarves, ROK?

If so, that would be a balance issue, I think. Let the Great Person be applied to the same tech for all civs based on whatever has already been researched. Or, maybe, if possible, give the player a choice. That would really make it interesting.

7. Kithra Kyriel . I often like to have Fellowship of Leaves for my religion. I still cannot understand the reason for FOL's first hero, Kithra Kyriel, needing Feral Bond to be researched. You can build AV and Order heroes when you adopt the religions. You can build ROK and OO heroes when you research the religion-specific techs. Why not let the FOL player build Kithra with Hidden Paths? Now that Yggdrasil is gone from there Hidden Paths is pretty useless. Or let him be built when you adopt FOL.

Finally, has anyone else played a raging barb game with Labruscum on a Huge land map on a slower game speed? What did you end up with by around turn 300? I played a number of these games. Some never made it to turn 300 as I had Conquest Victories courtesy of the raging barbs. I have to say in .25 the AI has taken a turn for the worse when it comes to dealing with the raging barb option. Civs are really mowed down quickly. Civs with the Barbarian trait bizarrely declare war on the barbs and also get destroyed. AI civs just cannot get away from expanding and focus on defending.

When I added more and more AI civs, the games lasted a little longer. However, still by turn 300, the barbs took over most of the map. 30-40 barb cities was the order of the day. You got plenty from Labruscum to start the game. Then, I noticed in this new version, the barbs rarely raze cities, but capture them. Lastly, you still have that incredible spawn rate for barb cities. All this adds up to a massive Barbarian Empire that, of course, need not worry about maintenance costs, etc. Why, you will even find them building the Forbidden Palace and other Wonders of the World and, my goodness, having Golden Ages! Barbarians!!!

What is wrong with THAT picture?

Anyway, just curious if anyone has tried to play a game with these or similar specs. Raging barbs are quite a challenge in this scenario, but Labruscum added makes it very tough.

Thanks again for any comments on these observations.

 

[Grillick]

Raging barbarians is a bad idea in .25 precisely because the AI doesn't do its unit builds properly. The AI had been set to check for required buildings from units to determine its building purchases, but units changed from requiring buildings to requiring building classes, and the Ai wasn't changed to account for that. It will be fixed in shadow.

Because of that, the AI rarely builds archery ranges, training yards, or hunting lodges, unless they have a special one which gives a free promotion. This makes them easy pickings for the barbarians.

 

[Nimbus]

5. Random Events. I guess I kinda like this new feature in FFH2. However, if possible, I think more events need to be added. The reason I say this is because in one of my games I had 7 mining disasters (explosions, poisonous gases, etc.) in only about 20 turns. Yes, they are random, and, again, I suppose more bad luck. But, I only had 3-4 mines in my two cities. Wouldn't adding more events to the list reduce the chances of getting hit over and over again with the same 'random' events?

This has more to do with the type of event, than quantity of event. In the eventinfo.xml file there are three mining events, the first one has "x" amount of chance of being in a game and then an "x" amount of chance of happening to a mine. The next two mining events are 100% chance of being in game and happening if that first mining event goes off. therefore you get hit three rimes on that mine if it occours and all subsequent mines have a strong likelihood of being triggered again.. It really stinks, esp. when playing a nation that uses RoK.

7. Kithra Kyriel . I often like to have Fellowship of Leaves for my religion. I still cannot understand the reason for FOL's first hero, Kithra Kyriel, needing Feral Bond to be researched. You can build AV and Order heroes when you adopt the religions. You can build ROK and OO heroes when you research the religion-specific techs. Why not let the FOL player build Kithra with Hidden Paths? Now that Yggdrasil is gone from there Hidden Paths is pretty useless. Or let him be built when you adopt FOL.

Excellent suggestion and one I have been using since sometime in version 0.23 hasn't seem unbalancing at all for me.

 

[Arqane]

3. Fled vs. Withdrew.

6. Great Persons Assisting Tech Research.

7. Kithra Kyriel

3. Fleeing is only for the Defender trait, I believe. Withdrawal is unit-based as in the normal game. Basically if Withdrawal works, it'll say withdrew. If the Defender trait kicks in (even for a unit that happens to have withdrawal), it'll say that it fled.

6. Great People can't research techs that involve founding a religion. That's the case in almost all mods and the main game. I'm guessing it's hard-coded in as default, but can probably be changed. No civ in FFH can use a GP prophet for this, though (incidentally, mouse-over on techs will show you which GP can research which tech since BtS).

7. Well, Kithra is too powerful for Hidden Paths in my opinion (he'd toast Saverous, who's the current leader there). He's fairly weak later in the game, though. The problem is, he doesn't scale well without the ability to use metal weapons. I've never complained much, though... because I consider Yvain to be the best hero in the game (above Hemah) so it's a trade-off.

 

[MagisterCultuum]

I've had great prophets research religious techs quite often, usually Orders from Heaven or Message from the Deep (which is also available through great bards). The reason you can't do so is because you can research priesthood, which has a higher weighting than the religion founding techs. (personally I really think the tech popping mechanism should really be changed to allow a choice of techs. Only having Orders from Heaven available if you are Hyborem or only Malevolent Designs when you are Einion doesn't fit very well.)


Personally I think that Kithra (and many, if not most or even all of the heroes) might be better if only obtainable through random events rather than buildable with a certain tech. (in this case, requiring the FoL religion, and the existence Hemah somewhere in the world. For Gilden Silveric, there would need to be werewolves under rival/barb control) Switching religion should also cause an event where religious heroes defect to some other civ with the proper religion instead of killing the hero (or possibly just make it so the event creating them became available again). Of course, there would need to be many more heroes in the game in order to compensate for their randomness, and for the fact that the proper conditions for some to join you may never come.

 

[BeefontheBone]

Changing which techs are popped by prophets and their order is pretty straightforward - there's got to be something under "lightbulb" in C&C.

 

[MagisterCultuum]

Yeah, but I was hoping that "lightbulbing" could be changed to cause a pop up like the one for the tower of divination or the Infernal Grimorie, but still limit the options to those more thematically appropriate for the Great person type, and still with only a limited number of research points.

 

[westamastaflash]

Yeah, but I was hoping that "lightbulbing" could be changed to cause a pop up like the one for the tower of divination or the Infernal Grimorie, but still limit the options to those more thematically appropriate for the Great person type, and still with only a limited number of research points.

I love this idea. I don't like the way it weights it. Another place i'd like a popup is the "great person" thing. 5% chance of a merchant when i really need a prophet, and pop comes the merchant.

 

[Caradoc]

The reason you get Bears instead of Wolves is that they have Lairs, which will usually be located in more remote areas than Lion Dens. Wolf Packs seem to more often create Wolves in .25 so the population does not snowball like in .23.

The Lizzies are definitely a major threat with their 4/2 stats. I've never had three spawn on consecutive turns, but I have seen a cluster of 2 Lizzie lairs side-by-side and a Skelly lair right next to them. You've just gotta have several Warriors if you want to hold them off. Your reward will be some nicely promoted armies.

 

[Sarisin]

6. Great People can't research techs that involve founding a religion. That's the case in almost all mods and the main game. I'm guessing it's hard-coded in as default, but can probably be changed. No civ in FFH can use a GP prophet for this, though (incidentally, mouse-over on techs will show you which GP can research which tech since BtS).

7. Well, Kithra is too powerful for Hidden Paths in my opinion (he'd toast Saverous, who's the current leader there). He's fairly weak later in the game, though. The problem is, he doesn't scale well without the ability to use metal weapons. I've never complained much, though... because I consider Yvain to be the best hero in the game (above Hemah) so it's a trade-off.

You can found religions with a Great Prophet. I founded OO with one in my current game. As usual, the elves beat me to FOL and the dwarves to ROK.

I didn't convert to OO, though, playing as the Elohim, but, instead used another Great Prophet to almost research/found the Order (five turns).

Again, there just isn't any consistency for all the civs on what the GPs can do with research. When I have played the elves or dwarves, that Great Prophet lights up FOL or ROK, NOT Priesthood with all the req. techs researched. Why is that?

I don't view Kithra as stronger than Valin, and, again, you can get Valin just by adopting the Order (if no one else has built him). Yes, the Order would likely be founded after FOL, but I just don't see the connection between a hero like Kithra and Feral Bond.

 

[Sarisin]

The reason you get Bears instead of Wolves is that they have Lairs, which will usually be located in more remote areas than Lion Dens. Wolf Packs seem to more often create Wolves in .25 so the population does not snowball like in .23.

The Lizzies are definitely a major threat with their 4/2 stats. I've never had three spawn on consecutive turns, but I have seen a cluster of 2 Lizzie lairs side-by-side and a Skelly lair right next to them. You've just gotta have several Warriors if you want to hold them off. Your reward will be some nicely promoted armies.

I haven't seen a single Wolf Pack or Lion Pride in .25. Are they there? I just think the Bears have become a lot more plentiful than the other animals - at least in the games I've played. Adding Happiness to the Wolf Pen would seem to make sense to me.

It is hard in an Epic game to build that first Warrior in 12 turns even if you hurry production. Playing with Labruscum on, I always leave my starting Warrior at home to defend as those barb cities seem to produce Goblins and Warriors fairly quick...not to mention the Skeletons and Lizardmen that show up. Also, I've noticed that Warriors have a very good chance of getting a hostile reaction from goodie huts anyway and are usually quickly killed. The AI civs amaze me when they use Scouts for the sole defenders of some of their cities.

 

[Caradoc]

I see plenty of Wolf Packs and Lion Prides, but maybe they are placed on the map when it is first generated. I use the 'sto' maps, which offer a nice animals option (plus Hill Giants!).

With Labruscum (and Raging Barbs), I will keep three Warriors to defend a city on the frontier. That lets me move two out to defend a resource or attack an intruder while the other holds the city and heals. Using two usually assures holding the 'high ground' in case of a loss. With this arrangement, I can usually hold out for reinforcements/replacements. Eventually, I will have promoted or upgraded units and roads, so I can reduce the force to two. I find there is almost always time to build a second or even third Warrior before it is time to start on the first Worker.

 

[xienwolf]

I always figured the packs and prides were just waiting to be implemented. I have NEVER seen one in all my games so far.

 

[Sarisin]

I see plenty of Wolf Packs and Lion Prides, but maybe they are placed on the map when it is first generated. I use the 'sto' maps, which offer a nice animals option (plus Hill Giants!).

With Labruscum (and Raging Barbs), I will keep three Warriors to defend a city on the frontier. That lets me move two out to defend a resource or attack an intruder while the other holds the city and heals. Using two usually assures holding the 'high ground' in case of a loss. With this arrangement, I can usually hold out for reinforcements/replacements. Eventually, I will have promoted or upgraded units and roads, so I can reduce the force to two. I find there is almost always time to build a second or even third Warrior before it is time to start on the first Worker.

That's odd. I often use the the Wildlands option and have not seen a Lion Pride or Wolf Pack in .25. Just Bears and more Bears. In mid to late game, you really have to wade through the Bears to get anywhere. The number of Bears plus the number of barbs guarding the many barb cities really minimizes the raging barb effect.

You are right. Usually, there is time to build a second or third Warrior. Sometimes you are even lucky to get one from a goodie hut. However, in the game I mentioned (Epic speed), I was still about 15 turns away from that 2nd Warrior when I lost the game due to the 3 Lizardmen.

 

[onedreamer]

I see plenty of Wolf Packs and Lion Prides, but maybe they are placed on the map when it is first generated. I use the 'sto' maps, which offer a nice animals option (plus Hill Giants!).

There aren't any Wolf packs or Lion Prides in version 0.25 all the way patched. That's the reason why there are far more bears than anything else. Although there ARE lion dens, don't know how and why, but no wolf dens. Also the main problem with animals is that Gorillas and Tigers don't have dens, and they only spawn in a rare and often unaccessible (Lizardmen) area, jungle, making building the Grand Managerie nearly impossible at normal speeds. You normally miss one of these 2 or a wolf because wolves are so damn weak that they get all easily killed before you can promote your scouts and go out to find a survivor.

 

[onedreamer]

Sarisin, that 3 lizzies is a bit more than just unluck I'd say, but then again you insist to play epic speed... *sheakes head*. Mind you, I recently moved from standard to quick speed, which seems the most balanced for fun/playability and challenge.

 

[Sarisin]

There aren't any Wolf packs or Lion Prides in version 0.25 all the way patched. That's the reason why there are far more bears than anything else. Although there ARE lion dens, don't know how and why, but no wolf dens. Also the main problem with animals is that Gorillas and Tigers don't have dens, and they only spawn in a rare and often unaccessible (Lizardmen) area, jungle, making building the Grand Managerie nearly impossible at normal speeds. You normally miss one of these 2 or a wolf because wolves are so damn weak that they get all easily killed before you can promote your scouts and go out to find a survivor.

Some good points on the animals in .25. I haven't seen a lion den yet. You are spot on about the Wolves, I think. AI civs, of course, never capture any animals, BUT they do go out killing as many as possible. I think because the Wolves are weak, as you said, they go quickly and with no way for more to spawn, the Wolf has joined the Tiger and Gorilla as difficult to find and capture. That's why I suggested at least returning the Happiness for the Wolf Pen.

Good to hear from you onedreamer!

 

[Sarisin]

Sarisin, that 3 lizzies is a bit more than just unluck I'd say, but then again you insist to play epic speed... *sheakes head*. Mind you, I recently moved from standard to quick speed, which seems the most balanced for fun/playability and challenge.

hahaha. You know I have tried playing a few games at the faster speeds, but I always feel like I am the proverbial 'one-legged man in an ass-kickin' contest.' There is just so much to do and things happen so fast.

However, you are probably right in that this mod was really designed for the norma/fast speeds. If you play Epic or Marathon (gave up on that) you will run into balance issues and real problems with the counter.

The key is to juggle the options (there are so many now) until you hit the sweet spot for your games. Then, when you have a chance try some new options to see what you think.

 

[onedreamer]

The main reason why I played several Quick matches in 0.25 was that in FFH I almost never get to the end, I quit bored before. But this game is interesting in the end as well so I don't want to miss out !
(I quit also with quick speed btw... But that's only because 0.25 was too much incomplete).