A few fixes for Rise and Fall

[JasTiger]

Just a few things I've noted and I fully expect to be patched in at a future date because I'm 100% correct on this.

I'll add more as I play more.

Netherlands: Relax the restriction on polders. As it is, there are very few locations to actually build the things. Maybe 2 instead of 3 surrounding tiles? Or change it so its 3 OR 2 with a polder being the 3rd adjacent. So you can build polders out a bit if you invest in them up front.

Mapuche: The 20 loyalty decline is kind of a joke unfortunately. Its an awesome idea, but what does it really do? It lowers loyalty.....so that the city can just gain it back next turn? There are rarely enough units to make a dent in the loyalty, and any damage to loyalty is just reversed next turn if there is a governor or just plain normal loyalty. The change should be to either lower the loyalty for a few turns by a percentage of the unit destroyed. Say 40% of the units base strength, the city produces that less loyalty for say, 5 turns. If Lautaro kicks your butt, then yeah, the city can flip! Otherwise, as it is now, its just shrugged off and does nothing.

City Flipping: If a free city wishes to join my empire, I should have the option to keep, ignore, or RAZE the city. I don't necessarily want someones crappy forward settled city and should have the option to delete it (and get any appropriate warmonger penalty too)

Also give us more ways to exert loyalty pressure. Make them more pronounced with civics or governors rather than just one.

I'll wait to see my ideas patched in, tia.

 

[Lupine]

I just finished a game with the Mapuche.
I did manage to flip a city by killing units against Persia. However as soon as it flipped it booted all my units further into Persia’s territory and they were spread out and got hammered by encampments and city centers. Not to mention the city spawned units as well.
Was not a fan of that mechanic.

 

[kb27787]

Only thing so far to complain about... AI rushes on t10-15 with 5 warriors...

PLEASE Firaxis give palace guard +10 or something instead of the measly +3 for crying out loud. It's annoying if every deity game has to be a dice roll and the opening tech has to be AH to archery every single time.

 

[Zike]

I feel like Mapuche should give + 20 loyalty when it kills something in friendly territory. That way it would be useful at keeping a city after you take it too.

 

[JasTiger]

That makes sense.

I've just never had the AI field enough units to make a city flip. It just puts a dent into the loyalty and it may as well have done nothing.

 

[dexters]

Just an extension of the city-state discussions;

On immortal/diety, city states should either get free or heavily discounted walls. Then CS not scaling seems to cause too many to get conquered.

 

[iammaxhailme]

I'm definitely in favor of a loosening of polder restrictions

 

[bonafide11]

Make the governor bonuses more exciting. There’s only a few that really are too useful in most games. Those few are powerful but the rest are meh. They could have done so
much more with the military one too.

 

[JasTiger]

I agree. Nothing super OP, but maybe a boost to some production or even stackable bonuses. The bonuses are way too situational. Don't get me wrong, they are a great addition, I just don't find every governor always useful to get, sometimes AT ALL.

 

[isau]

Someone mentioned the main problem with the Mapuche special. If you do flip the city, Barbarians at the current world tech level show up and immediately attack you. Lots of times these Barbarians are stronger than the civ you are in the middle of killing (thats why you attacked in the first place right?)

I don't have any particular insight in how to fix this just yet. I think flipped cities shouldn't spawn Barbarians right away though. Or at least those Barbarians should be some neutral party like City States are that only attacks people actually at war with them, not literal Barbarians out to attack everyone in the world.

As for problems with Rise and Fall. My biggest one is really not a R&F issue but that R&F didn't address it. Multiple copies of luxury resources are virtually worthless. You can trade them away from a couple of gold, maybe kinda useful early, but not later.

The Civ 5 Vox Populi mod handled this best I think. They introduced the concept of monopolies. Any player holding onto more than 50% of the copies of a world's luxury gets a unique bonus. It worked well and made Ivory, Diamonds, and Chocolate empires a thing.

 

[leandrombraz]

I'm a 100% correct when I say Firaxis will never add raze as an option when a Free city join your Empire, it go against what the mechanic is supposed to be and represent. Free cities need a lot of adjustment and the next patch will certainly focus heavily on it (and emergencies) but raze just ain't gonna happen.

 

[Bad Wolf]

City Flipping: If a free city wishes to join my empire, I should have the option to keep, ignore, or RAZE the city. I don't necessarily want someones crappy forward settled city and should have the option to delete it (and get any appropriate warmonger penalty too)

Can't you just ignore, then invade, conquer, and raze?

Doesn't really make sense that the citizens of the city would let you raze it. They want to join your empire, not be homeless...

Someone mentioned the main problem with the Mapuche special. If you do flip the city, Barbarians at the current world tech level show up and immediately attack you. Lots of times these Barbarians are stronger than the civ you are in the middle of killing (thats why you attacked in the first place right?)

Yeah this is a minor issue I've had too. I was extremelly surprised when a city flipped on my borders and all of a sudden I was dealing with modern Infantry even though I only had musketmen and crossbows - because even though tech hadn't advanced passed the Renaissance, Gorgo was going gangbusters on culture as usual and had already advanced to modern era civics. Definitely not a fan of that.

As for problems with Rise and Fall. My biggest one is really not a R&F issue but that R&F didn't address it. Multiple copies of luxury resources are virtually worthless. You can trade them away from a couple of gold, maybe kinda useful early, but not later.

I just made a pretty ranty thread about this...

 

[Uberfrog]

Can't you just ignore, then invade, conquer, and raze?

Doesn't really make sense that the citizens of the city would let you raze it. They want to join your empire, not be homeless...

Exactly. Either leave it as a Free city, or if it bothers you enough, send in the army to burn it down.

It doesn't make sense that they should, in effect, just peacefully annihilate themselves for your convenience.

 

[orasis]

Someone mentioned the main problem with the Mapuche special. If you do flip the city, Barbarians at the current world tech level show up and immediately attack you. Lots of times these Barbarians are stronger than the civ you are in the middle of killing (thats why you attacked in the first place right?)

I don't have any particular insight in how to fix this just yet. I think flipped cities shouldn't spawn Barbarians right away though. Or at least those Barbarians should be some neutral party like City States are that only attacks people actually at war with them, not literal Barbarians out to attack everyone in the world.

As for problems with Rise and Fall. My biggest one is really not a R&F issue but that R&F didn't address it. Multiple copies of luxury resources are virtually worthless. You can trade them away from a couple of gold, maybe kinda useful early, but not later.

The Civ 5 Vox Populi mod handled this best I think. They introduced the concept of monopolies. Any player holding onto more than 50% of the copies of a world's luxury gets a unique bonus. It worked well and made Ivory, Diamonds, and Chocolate empires a thing.

There is probably a reason... just like alliance's did not make any sense in vanilla since they were just place holders for things to come. I think the next expansion will probably have some sort of company/corporation system.

 

[Arent11]

Netherlands: Relax the restriction on polders. As it is, there are very few locations to actually build the things. Maybe 2 instead of 3 surrounding tiles? Or change it so its 3 OR 2 with a polder being the 3rd adjacent. So you can build polders out a bit if you invest in them up front.

Make it adjacency as with other unique improvements. The more adjacent tiles, the more yield a polder has. Just one tile gives nothing, 2 tiles gives some production, three tiles even more stuff.

 

[JasTiger]

Well I don't see razing a city flip the same as them annihilating themselves, and more like "Hey I appreciate you want to join me, but your forward settled city with no resources and no good placement is pretty much useless. Just move into the next city over, thanks". Say maybe cities size 4 and smaller or based on the age your in. It could be "they abandon their settlement and increase the pop of your nearest city" instead of now I have to deal with this free city.

Which I think is a big part of it, the Free Cities are MEGA BELLIGERENT in my experience. They don't just chill and claim sovereignty, they are basically rampaging barbarians. Why? Why do they declare independence then want to come over and ruin my tile improvements? Don't take it out on me that your former civ was bad.

I agree on luxuries,. there should be some bonus for monopolizing like in Vox Populi, or maybe every copy after the first just gives 1 amenity instead of 4. Or SOMETHING. It shouldn't ever feel useless to improve a resource.

Also why is Nubia near me every single game I start. I'd like a game where I Don't immediately have Meroe every time

 

[criZp]

Getting to burn a city to the ground because it asks to join you, not ever happening.

Governor promotions are mostly boring. Some are fine, but then you have all these "extra production on buildings" promotions, which stink. Also the unique improvements, it's stupid that they are locked to the governor's city (yeah I could move her around a bunch, but that's tedious and unfun). Magnus-chop feels like it is required to use. The defense dude has no good promotion except for the "all units defend better around the city" one. And the finance woman has two promotions where you don't even know the effect (extra border growth, and extra gold from foreign trade in the city).

 

[UWHabs]

Getting to burn a city to the ground because it asks to join you, not ever happening.

Governor promotions are mostly boring. Some are fine, but then you have all these "extra production on buildings" promotions, which stink. Also the unique improvements, it's stupid that they are locked to the governor's city (yeah I could move her around a bunch, but that's tedious and unfun). Magnus-chop feels like it is required to use. The defense dude has no good promotion except for the "all units defend better around the city" one. And the finance woman has two promotions where you don't even know the effect (extra border growth, and extra gold from foreign trade in the city).

I'd agree that a lot of the governor promotions are boring. I do think Liang's being limited to the city make sense - if you want to make use, you need to move her around. That's cool.

But agreed that 20% production on 2-3 buildings really doesn't mean a whole lot. I would rather they get rid of the production bonuses, but give yield bonuses. So maybe instead of +20% production of campus buildings, it's +2 science per campus building, for example. And they definitely need to improve the bishop and the Castellan's promotions to be more than situational.

 

[Stilgar08]

Only thing so far to complain about... AI rushes on t10-15 with 5 warriors...

PLEASE Firaxis give palace guard +10 or something instead of the measly +3 for crying out loud. It's annoying if every deity game has to be a dice roll and the opening tech has to be AH to archery every single time.

Well, if you play deity you play deity after All...
Razing free cities that want to join would feel very gamey to me. Killing the free city off is a different thing though.

 

[SammyKhalifa]

I'd agree that a lot of the governor promotions are boring. I do think Liang's being limited to the city make sense - if you want to make use, you need to move her around. That's cool.

But agreed that 20% production on 2-3 buildings really doesn't mean a whole lot. I would rather they get rid of the production bonuses, but give yield bonuses. So maybe instead of +20% production of campus buildings, it's +2 science per campus building, for example.

20% to ANY buildings might be ok.