[R&F] A few newbie questions

[Elric of Grans]

I only picked up Civ6 in the last Steam Sale. I had played Civ5 before, but was a little out of practice. I played the Civ6 Tutorial (Gilgamesh) and have since been playing on Settler difficulty to get a feel for the game. I had many aborted games where I had clearly messed-up big-time, but I have finally hammered out three victories. I never enjoyed Domination, so I have been experimenting with the peaceful conditions. I also always preferred to play Tall rather than Wide --- it feels more rewarding to me. I think I am now ready to start stepping the difficulty up, but there are a few parts of the game I could use some direction on.

My first win (about fifth game) was a Science Victory with Rome. This felt pretty similar to Civ5. I took about 350 turns, which I think may have been a little slow. I had five cities, each with a Campus and Industrial Zone. Two had Space Ports, and I had scattered other useful districts (eg Commercial Hubs) around the empire. I also had a friendly (Culture-focused) neighbour who I ran a long-term Science Alliance with, to milk a few extra beakers. I had almost no difficulties in this game: Rome seems excellent for newbies! I had three Golden Ages, then two Dark Ages, then won on a Heroic Age.

My second win (after countless attempts) was a Cultural Victory with Egypt --- Cultural Victory was my favourite in Civ5/BNW. I took a bit over 300 turns, which I am positive is too slow! I had four cities, each with a Theatre Square and all buildings. I had three cities with Art Museums (one was Themed; two others were 2/3) and one with an Archaeology Museum (I feel like Art Museums are more useful). I also had multiple Campuses and Commercial Hubs. I had a long-term Science Alliance with a friendly neighbour and was Suzerain of three City States between me and my other neighbour (who DoWed me and had all his troops killed by City States, bwahaha). I used Trade to establish a huge reservoir of Gold and prioritised Wonders that provided extra slots for Great Works --- even then, I often had GWAMs sitting around my empire with nowhere to use them. I also accidentally wasted GPP on Hildegard of Bingen, who I could not use: I now know to look more closely at who they are! I did not get a National Park (I had a spot in mind, but it was one tile away from the maximum reach of the city I placed for it --- another lesson learned!) and have not yet experimented with Seaside Resorts (I had no cities near the coast --- Pangaea map).

My third win (after a few fails due to accidentally playing on Prince) was a Religious Victory with Russia. This was over in the Classical Age, very, very easy, and exceedingly dull. Germany built Stonehenge to get the first Religion, but I had the first Missionary out and converted their one city before they could do anything. I converted everyone else before they established a Religion. I only had three cities at this point, with plans for 1-2 more; Suzerain of nowhere.

My first question is are those games too slow? Should I be winning earlier, and if so is it possible to win earlier while playing Tall and never fighting aggressive wars?

My build order has developed into: Scout, Slinger, Slinger, Builder, Settler. I built a Lavra with Russia before my first Settler. This seems to work for me and my play-style. I am a little uncertain after here. In Civ5 I used to get 3-4 Builders and put improvements on every tile. With Builders now having limited charges, should I spam them to improve every basic tile (eg Farms on every empty Grasslands, Mines on every empty Hill), or is that now a waste? I have experimented with both and cannot decide which was better. I have found using my second Builder with Magnus as my first Governor to clear all my Woods a good way to get started. Once the Capital no longer has Woods to benefit I move Magnus to the next city and use the next Builder there to repeat.

I am still having difficulties getting my head around Housing and Amenities. With my Egypt win, I was constantly being told my cities lacked both. As someone who prefers to play Tall, I presume I want to push both of these up as hard as I can, correct? Until Neighbourhoods are unlocked, it seems like Farms are my best way to add Housing (Pastures/Camps/Plantations are resource dependent), but Amenities seem harder. Getting new Luxuries is one of the things I look for when sending-off a Settler, but they are not always available in good locations. I try to Trade for them, but this is difficult early on. I am loath to build Entertainment Complexes early, due to limited Districts (the others seem more valuable). What is the best approach here?

In Civ5/BNW I would almost always found a Religion, but it seems considerably less attractive in Civ6 due to Holy Sites. Some Civilizations are heavily incentivised to go for Religion (eg Russia, Arabia), but otherwise is it worth investing one of your limited early-game Districts on a Holy Site? A Campus or Encampment seems wiser (in general), or Theatre Square for Cultural Victory. Would you aim for Religion with Civilisations that have a minor bonus towards it (eg Japan), or only a major incentive (eg Russia)? If you are not pursuing Religion, are Pantheons worth putting much emphasis on, or just plan on it being a minor, short-term bonus until a neighbour converts you?

Free stuff is always attractive. Eurekas, Inspirations, and City State Quests give free stuff. How much emphasis should I give these? At present, I am only doing them if they are something I would have done anyway (eg I always get the Inspiration for Craftsmanship with my first Builder, typically picking up two Eurekas at the same time). Obviously it is not worth going out of your way on things you cannot control or are actively in opposition to your strategy, but is it worth going slightly out of your way to get one? For example, you were going to make a military unit anyway and a City State wants you to make a Spearman. Would you make the Spearman for the free Envoy, or make the (say) Swordsman you otherwise would have produced?

 

[Victoria]

Welcome Elric, glad to be of help. First off, Civ VI is more complex than the other games and there is more choices. I'm not going to give you everything as its too much just try and answer your questions efficiently and you can ask more.

My first question is are those games too slow? Should I be winning earlier, and if so is it possible to win earlier while playing Tall and never fighting aggressive wars?

Yes if you are interested in winning fast rather than enjoying an immersive game. The secret to very fast wins is just concentrate on the districts you need. Also expansion is really important, while you can win on deity with a single city it is hard and skillfull. There is no punishment in this game for going wide.

should I spam them to improve every basic tile

No, there is no point in improving a tile you will not be working unless it is a luxury or if you truly want to go tall as certain improvements give housing

What is the best approach here?

There is issues with large cities getting unhappy and you are then purely growing to build an ED (entertainment district) to please them. The pop values are not great, especially once you understand just how powerful city states are. A 4 pop city gives 2 districts, a 7 pop takes longer to grow and gives an extra district... a 10 pop an additional but the pop starts to get unhappy, also it takes a while to grow here, each additional pop take much more food to make. You are better off making a settler early as the replacement pop will grow fast and the new settler grows a small city faster and you get more districts which is the key really... 3 small pop 4 cities with 3 science districts are worth a lot more than one 10 pop city with 1 science district if going for science.

are Pantheons worth putting much emphasis on, or just plan on it being a minor, short-term bonus until a neighbour converts you?

Goddess of the Harvest is very overpowered, it has been from the start and they have not changed that so it is here to stay. It is the AI's second choice after earth goddess so you have a chance of getting it even on deity. If you can get a golden age the combination of the monumentality golden age choice with Harvest means you can spam builders and settlers with chopping very fast and your builders are more efficient being nippy.

Eurekas, Inspirations, and City State Quests give free stuff. How much emphasis should I give these?

Everything. One you miss is more time in the game... some you are likely to miss but the large majority you can get... so go for around 80%.... work one until 60% and stop and work another and get the eureka/inspiration. City states are just as powerful.
A campus with a library will give 2 science + science adjacency. If we ignore the adjacency.., that is 2 science for each library. If you have 3 envoys at a science city state that gives +2 to each library... so 2 science city states would be +4... 3 normal campus = 6 science... 3 campus with 2 science CS with 3 envoys = 18 science... and these can be buffed by Kilwa kiwisani and other things. City states are aewsome... you can even use spies to kill other civ's envoys there.

One thing you have not mentioned is the chop... click on the chopping example above my signature to learn some nifty things fast. Chopping is a huge game improver! The fastest speed up there is.

 

[NorthernPalmyra]

I am still having difficulties getting my head around Housing and Amenities

This as a fellow newbie is one of my biggest problems

 

[SupremacyKing2]

I had five cities,
....
I had four cities
.....
I only had three cities at this point, with plans for 1-2 more

My first question is are those games too slow? Should I be winning earlier, and if so is it possible to win earlier while playing Tall and never fighting aggressive wars?

You don't have enough cities IMO. civ6 favors Wide play. You should be expanding to 10 or more cities at least depending on the map. More cities will help you win faster.

 

[Fluphen Azine]

I have a newbie question.
Does the City State Wall Mod make the game easier or harder on Deity?
Does this Mod confuse the AI or does the AI lose troops going to war with a Walled City State from turn 1?

 

[Morino1914]

I have a newbie question.
Does the City State Wall Mod make the game easier or harder on Deity?
Does this Mod confuse the AI or does the AI lose troops going to war with a Walled City State from turn 1?

I always play with that mod on immortal and deity so here’s my reasoning.

In my opinion it does make the game easier (and much more enjoyable!).
Ai gets free cities, free xp and more loyalty pressure.

With more CS alive you as a human have more ways of catering to city states than Ai. You can save up, you can use the double envoy card correct, you can focus on missions and send envoys to the “correct” city states at a much higher level than AI. They seem to just use them at once, and if possible get suzerainty. If you save half a dozen, and time it properly you’ll suddenly have 5-6 more envoys and a high probability they’ll never contest your suzerainty.

At a much higher human level than I play on, captured CS can be useful for liberation and the instant suzerainty it gives. But still, that’s usually later in the game. A single envoy in a culture CS from t10-30 is IMO worth more than 6 from t100+.

 

[BarbarianHunter]

I have a newbie question.
Does the City State Wall Mod make the game easier or harder on Deity?
Does this Mod confuse the AI or does the AI lose troops going to war with a Walled City State from turn 1?

Fluphen Azine, I'd wager that for the way you play it makes it harder. You'll roll the board anyway, and liberating city states = free envoys.

 

[Fluphen Azine]

Fluphen Azine, I'd wager that for the way you play it makes it harder. You'll roll the board anyway, and liberating city states = free envoys.

I was messing about with it.
I found that it makes the game different but easier IMO.
Swords or Horses with Battering Ram seems to work if you need to take over a CS.
However, it seems easier to just ally them up.
I found using the two Diplomatic Policy Cards early as you warmonger with your neighbors to be able to lock down many CS's.

Heavy Concentration on Early Scouting seems to be very profitable with this CS Wall Mod.
Many times if you build a scout you will pop another scout or two.
Rush Buying a scout seems worth it as well to find more CS's and Huts asap.
I just found that what @Morino1914 seem to hold true.
Very easy to get envoys into them and hold them.

I also noticed the AI constantly throwing Swords, Horses and Archers into the Walls getting sliced up constantly.
This is later at turn 80 to 100 and the AI just can't seem to break through and refuses not to go to war with the CS's.
They are just coded to try to roll them.

It also creates far less space for the AI.
IMO the Wall Mod makes the game much easier.
Many players enjoy using it but it doesn't jive with my style.
I was curious what everyone thought of it though.
I see pros and cons but I certainly feel that it makes Deity easier.

 

[BarbarianHunter]

Heavy Concentration on Early Scouting seems to be very profitable with this CS Wall Mod.
Many times if you build a scout you will pop another scout or two.
Rush Buying a scout seems worth it as well to find more CS's and Huts asap.
I just found that what @Morino1914 seem to hold true.
Very easy to get envoys into them and hold them.

I don't see much value in this on deity without the wall mod. Taking Amani and suz'ing a CS, then moving to the next for era score seems all I'm able to do. The AI just starts with soooo many units. On emperor and what-not, scouting becomes more viable, but then again, who needs it @ those levels? Can you tell I'm not a big fan of scouts?

I also noticed the AI constantly throwing Swords, Horses and Archers into the Walls getting sliced up constantly.
This is later at turn 80 to 100 and the AI just can't seem to break through and refuses not to go to war with the CS's.
They are just coded to try to roll them.

It also creates far less space for the AI.
IMO the Wall Mod makes the game much easier.
Many players enjoy using it but it doesn't jive with my style.
I was curious what everyone thought of it though.
I see pros and cons but I certainly feel that it makes Deity easier.​

Now that you mention it, that makes quite a bit of sense as to why the wall mod might make deity easier.​

 

[Fluphen Azine]

I have been lazy about scouting in this game for a very long time... over two decades.
However recently I am making a point of it to scout heavy and early.
It is more work but it certainly is beneficial.
Scouts seem worth more than they cost on Pangaea Maps.

 

[BarbarianHunter]

I have been lazy about scouting in this game for a very long time... over two decades.
However recently I am making a point of it to scout heavy and early.
It is more work but it certainly is beneficial.
Scouts seem worth more than they cost on Pangaea Maps.

I'd argue that in the majority of games having the 3rd archer + warrior combo (tipping point for rolling AI's) will come substantially sooner if you devote your resources to that and skip the scout. If you can get the 4th archer or another warrior, all the better. No resources for a scout. I never build or buy scouts and win almost all my games on deity in a timely manner. Every now and again I get rolled, but a scout certainly would be of no matter relative to that outcome.

Edit: At the very least you will gain XP, and be in a position to support your horses when they arrive. I prefer a builder to a scout to sell lux's & buy a horse.

 

[Fluphen Azine]

So to sum up your thoughts on scouts.... useless

 

[BarbarianHunter]

So to sum up your thoughts on scouts.... useless

Less than zero. I find civs and wonders (era score) earlier than I need to. I prefer a medieval golden age to classical. Not only that the civs I never meet can't get mad about my warmongering .

 

[Elric of Grans]

Thanks for the tips. Since starting the thread I have been trying to play on Chieftain, mostly using China, with the occasional Greece (Pericles) or Japan start. I have had many games fail in the Classical Era. Many, many games. Last night I finally scored a win with China, though the middle of the game was rough (low production in every city, no useful City States, Spies constantly sabotaging me). In the end, I was dominant in both Culture and Science, and ended up managing a late-ish Culture Victory.

I have been trying to get a game started with Japan now (intending to make use of Meiji Restoration for a Science Victory), but have been struggling to get a decent start. I thought I would play them on Island Plates, but that was a horrible starting position every time; I then tried Continents, but it was not much better. Beaten to all the Goodie Huts and City States, starting within 20 tiles of aggressive civs, 2-3 Barbarian Camps at a time... I just keep giving up! Perhaps I will just stick with Inland Sea and Pangaea until I get better at the game.

 

[MarigoldRan]

You must be doing other things wrong if you're struggling on Chieftain.

 

[Elric of Grans]

I finally managed to get a good start with Japan (friendly neighbour I forged an alliance with, enough good place to expand) and scored a relatively easy Science Victory. I hit a point near the end where it slowed dramatically, however. About turn 300 I had satellites launched and one city working on the moon landing, so I figured I was almost there. It took until turn 370 to actually colonise Mars! I obviously need to work on that bit in future.

I just have a few questions about prioritisation of building.

I am beginning to appreciate the importance of getting enough Warriors and Slingers out in the early game, then keeping enough military presence to keep Barbarians trivial and neighbours unlikely to roll me. In my last game Alexander DoWed me, but I had Fighters/Bombers vs his Musketmen/Knights and Ironclad Armadas vs his Caravels, so it was a non-event. At the beginning (Ancient/Classical) I think I need number of cities +1 Slingers/Archers, and number of cities +2 Warriors/Swordsmen --- that seems to be the sweet spot. I have also had great fun with Great General Boudica (2-3 free units, instantly)! I seem to be having difficulty managing upkeep vs income by Medieval, however. Perhaps I need to prioritise Commercial Hub/Harbour higher than I currently do?

When creating Settlers, I have been making them in my lowest-population City (usually the last one settled). A pop-6 city will take longer to recover than a pop-3 one, so this helps me get a 10-pop city ASAP. Is this a good approach, or would I be better having all my cities create Settlers early on (assuming there are enough good places to settle)? I have been prioritising sources of fresh water near something good (eg new luxuries, mountains, etc), with coastal tiles my choice if no good fresh water. I once got Suzerain of the City State that lets you treat all tiles as fresh water and abused the heck out of it! Assuming that City State is not an option, is it ever worth settling places with no access to water (not even with an Aqueduct)? When I set-up a new city, I have used Traders to build roads to its nearest neighbour and/or the capital, which seems a good idea, but I have been running these from the capital. I question this now: should I spend a turn relocating the Trader to the new city instead, to help it grow faster?

In terms of basic buildings, Water Mills and Ancient Walls seem no brainers in early cities, and I always prioritise them in at least one city for the Eurekas (losing 5-6 turns on one city to gain 5-6 turns on a tech seems a good trade). I also like Granaries, but do not prioritise them as highly --- I do them when I have nothing higher priority to build (eg Warriors/Settlers/Builders). I am torn on the Monument. It seems too small a bonus for the turns you lose building it, but my early Civic progress is too slow for my liking when I do not. I presume the tier-one building in every district should be my priority after building the district, correct?

I am still pretty undecided on building districts too. If aiming for a religion I feel like you need to make a beeline for Astrology and build a Holy Site ASAP; otherwise, I just ignore this. In both Science and Culture Victory, I typically build a Campus as my first District in my first two cities --- I build them in every city for Science, and any further cities with good adjacency bonuses for Culture. I always build the Government District as my second choice in my Capital too. I rarely seem to build Aqueducts (there is almost never a good place for them), but usually build a +5/6 Neighbourhood in each major city later in the game. If going for a Culture Victory, the Theatre Square is my third build in the Capital, second build in the second city, and first in most subsequent cities; I never build it on Science Victories, but suspect I should (I progress the Civics too slow). Does this all sound like a good plan so far? I really struggle around the Commercial Hub/Harbour, Industrial Zone, and Entertainment Complex. The former two seem no-brainers in major cities, but I always feel like I need them before I have the population to build them, whereas I never like to build the latter unless I have a huge city that already has the other districts. How should I balance this?

I am also uncertain around competing on early Wonders, assuming no special bonus (eg Egypt, China). If I happen to meet the requirements for the Pyramids of Temple of Athena in either of my first two cities I always try to make them, but is seems rare I have the option. I never try to compete for the other Ancient Wonders, as they usually get rapidly swallowed by other civs. In the Classical Era, I make a beeline for the Great Library in both Cultural and Scientific Victory paths --- it seems too good to ignore. I also always build the Apadana in a Cultural Victory path (more Great Works). Situationally I may build Petra, but that is rare. I always pass on the other Classical Wonders (perhaps if I would reconsider some for Religion, but I cannot yet say). I would build the Colosseum, but never have an Entertainment Complex at this point. When I reach the Medieval Era, I feel like I am competing less as I tend to be far-enough ahead in tech/civics to build what I want before anyone else can start them.

 

[Victoria]

a scout certainly would be of no matter relative to that outcome

Bottom line is that once you know how to play you only loose in the first 20 or so turns... and the only thing that stops that is military so you are 100% when it comes to outcome. I disagree on their uselessness though. To me they are not scouts because they only have 2 vision, they are really skirmishers and that is how I use them. Also once a scout is assigned to my army they are key, for ZOC early and later as damage taking and even sacrificial units as they are a preference target, even over a heavily damaged knight.

When creating Settlers, I have been making them in my lowest-population City (usually the last one settled). A pop-6 city will take longer to recover than a pop-3 one, so this helps me get a 10-pop city ASAP. Is this a good approach

Sounds great to me, creating settlers in a low pop city means you get your pop back faster. Even better get the Provision promotion for Magnus and do not loose a pop at all.

Perhaps I need to prioritise Commercial Hub/Harbour higher than I currently do?

Campus/Theater and hoghly sites are normally the highest priority. You do need cash but there are other ways of doing this... for example pillaging horse/cows gives money, taking traders out, use the pillage card to get double. Also trading luxuries early before you really need them. Unhappiness only matters normally

I am torn on the Monument.

Do not tear your way too far. Monuments are one of the very few ways to get culture. and you need culture....as much as you can get, epsecially eary. In fact I have a new couple of benchmarks I use on myself.... 7 cities by turn 70 and 10 culture per turn by turn 25. This second one is very important for getting political philosophy (government) by around T50

I presume the tier-one building in every district should be my priority after building the district, correct?

This is not strictly true... So I am playing a game at the moment where I have built 2 campuses and a government district. next to a single mountain. Both campus have +3 adjacency which is +6 with the double science adjacency card... so I have +12 science from these 2 but building the libraries currently will only give +2 each as I do not have envoys at any science CS's.

Does this all sound like a good plan so far?

... not really. So at the start, expand fast, it is all about expanding fast and also getting culture. Little else really matters that much. You place your districts but then maybe work on something else rather than finishing them. Phase 2 at around Feudalism comes or a bit after where you are getting 5-6 chop builders and also good values for chopping trees and stone, you then chop the districts you placed in with chopping and chop the buildings in on top of them... These districts should be the ones you need to win. The final phase is then consolidating you victory with what is needed likely pushing eurekas and inspirations to get you up the trees faster to where you need to go.... religion is a bit different to these, lets not go there, I feel its too simple and broken

I am also uncertain around competing on early Wonders,

So... in general a few certain wonders are very powerful, the others not so much
Pyramids - Cheap, early, canbe used as an inspiration for Drama & Poetry and the +1 to all your builders (including existing ones) is very strong.
Coliseum - also cheap and relatively early. +2 culture per city within 6 tiles... wowser...build those cities close for about 7-9 cities to get around +16 culture and lots of amenities.... and I know you like to grow your cities... +2 amenities in each city within 6... thats a lot of hapiness.
Oracle - This one is built faster by the AI so you need to chop it in quick to have a decent chance but string great person generator, particularly strong for CV
Big Ben, Forbidden City are also good general ones and there are a few specifics to certain victories but in general most are not worth building.

 

[Fluphen Azine]

... not really. So at the start, expand fast, it is all about expanding fast and also getting culture. Little else really matters that much. You place your districts but then maybe work on something else rather than finishing them. Phase 2 at around Feudalism comes or a bit after where you are getting 5-6 chop builders and also good values for chopping trees and stone, you then chop the districts you placed in with chopping and chop the buildings in on top of them... These districts should be the ones you need to win. The final phase is then consolidating you victory with what is needed likely pushing eurekas and inspirations to get you up the trees faster to where you need to go.... religion is a bit different to these, lets not go there, I feel its too simple and broken

What is the general game plan or build order?
How many builders should I have built before Feudalism?
How much military should I have ideally build in the Early Game?
How many districts should be built before Feudalism?
How do you best handle the Turn 5 Forward Settle?

 

[BarbarianHunter]

Coliseum - also cheap and relatively early. +2 culture per city within 6 tiles... wowser...build those cities close for about 7-9 cities to get around +16 culture and lots of amenities.... and I know you like to grow your cities... +2 amenities in each city within 6... thats a lot of happiness.

The colosseum is a big winner no matter your victory path. The amenities help for warmongering, but if you are going peaceful the AI's will probably give you lucrative trade deals for your amenities. With the colosseum you can trade essentially all of your amenities away to the AI's for gold. Pyramids, Oracle, Temple of Artemis, etc...eh. Not really all that relevant. I usually begin construction of an entertainment district some time between turn 70 and 90. After you complete your entertainment district, you'll want to have 3-5 or so builders ready to chop the colosseum in ASAP. I also tend to buy the arena with gold to further expedite. The sooner you get the amenities and culture the better as early culture is always great and if you chop it up early enough, you can make a ton of gold from the AI's (who won't hate you yet). In fact those 3-5 builders to chop the colosseum are almost free, as the minute it's finished you can sell all your amenities to the AI and buy more.

Edit: Here is a video to demonstrate the chop (I had just finished the entertainment district). I was relieved to have chopped it in when I found that China was in the game.

 

[Fluphen Azine]

@BarbarianHunter

What Mod are you playing with?
I watched a few mins of the Nubia game.
You have Corn, Apples and some other things I don't have in my game lol.
Perhaps I don't have Icons on in my game.