A Letter from C3B! - Subject: Alliance

[Cheetah]

I was on IRC today, when I was contacted by Joker:

[00:04:09] <Cheetah> I recognised you
[00:04:16] <Joker> i would like to ask you, if you recieved our e-mail with the alliance proposition
[00:04:33] <Cheetah> just thought I should complete the line I was writing
[00:04:35] <Cheetah> hm
[00:04:40] <Cheetah> checking
[00:04:49] <Joker> ok, thanks
[00:05:02] <Cheetah> we've been holding the save as you probably have noticed, so haven't checked the mail for a while
[00:05:57] <Joker> it's ok, we sent the same e-mail that we sent the letter
[00:06:37] <Cheetah> I see it
[00:07:14] <Cheetah> oh and about the naming of the saves, I believe most of the saves lately have been in the format of IDG2-CFC_<year>BC
[00:07:41] <Cheetah> I'm going to post this on the forum very soon
[00:08:01] <Cheetah> just have to complete the ISDG1 save first
[00:08:05] <Joker> ok, i'll pass this to the president Bremp, i really don't know the format that we are using
[00:08:20] <Cheetah> hehe
[00:08:42] <Cheetah> It's the one proposed in the UN turn thread I think
[00:10:21] <Joker> ok, i pass this information. About the agreement, EMP and I agreed to discuss it first, make changes, after that vote, so the agreement would not be denied because of 1 word or frase
[00:10:50] <Joker> please make any changes that you thing that should be done
[00:12:00] <Joker> i will be going now
[00:12:03] <Cheetah> yes. I've read the chat log
[00:12:32] <Joker> great Any doults, just sent me an e-mail. So you use MSN or AIM?
[00:12:57] <Cheetah> MSN yes
[00:13:41] <Cheetah> but I'm paying for every minute I'm on the net now untill I get a better connection, so I'm not online very often...
[00:14:03] <Joker> it's ok, thanks anyway.
[00:14:49] <Joker> I think this is it, I hope we really build this alliance, after all, is seems like there is an alliance on the other continent
[00:15:05] <Joker> Next saturday we discuss the agreement
[00:15:20] <Joker> bye
[00:15:23] <Cheetah> sure
[00:15:24] No such nick/channel
[00:15:25] <Cheetah> bye
[00:15:26] No such nick/channel

Here is the letter. When I'm posting this, I haven't read through all of this myself either.

Hi friends of Fanatica.

I'm sending you two things: the main Agreement and a Plan for the alliance.
The ideia is: we build a super alliance, for that we will have the main agreement and we will include articles and change things as he agree so.

The Plan is for both of us to have an idea of how the negociations will be done. It will probaly be changed with time, but it will be a guide, so we procced to build a great alliance with calm

We liked the ideia of Emperor Napoleon to delay the voting. Now we would discuss and change the main agreement and the Plan as we agree. So feel free to make changes, to add things and so. At next chat (July 2th) you would present the changes that you want to make. Then both populations would vote.

Main Agreement:
XXXX, president of Fanatica,
and
XXXX, president of Civ3Brasil,

With the purpose of strengthening, deepening and enlarging the friendship relations between the two countries;
Recognizing the wish of leaving in peace with each other;
Under the spirit of cooperation in order to achieve a position at the finals of the Tournament,
And respecting the rules of ISDG,

The Parties agree as follows:

Article 1: Duration and effectiveness

This Agreement shall enter into force on the date of its signature and shall be
effective for 50 turns, meaning from X to XXX, and may be renewed as the parties agree to do so.
With mutual consent, any article may be changed and new ones may be created.

Article 2: Non Aggression Pact &#8211; NAP

The Parties agree not to attack each other’s units, destroy improvements, pillage roads that connect colonies or perform any other act of aggression.
Cultural Conversion or &#8220;Flip&#8221; is considered an act of war, as so is forbidden by
this agreement.

Article 3: Borders and Territories

The Parties recognize as territories of Fanatica the South part of the continent and as territories of Civ3Brasil the North part. Borders and De-Militarized Zones shall be discussed at further meetings.

Plan:

>From Today to 07/02: Discuss the Initial Agreement and this plan



07/02: Both countries bring suggestions of changes for the Initial Agreement and this plan. We discuss and make a version that will be voted by the population of each country. If approved we will send a copy to the coordinators of the game, making it official.



07/09: Discuss about sea and land exploration. Initial proposal: it is allowed to explore with one warrior, chariot or worker at the other’s time territory, it may enter at the cultural borders. It is allowed to explore with a curragh at the coastal area of the other country, it may enter at the cultural borders. People would vote it, if approved it would be another article.



07/16: Bring tech proposals and discuss it. Discuss borders of each country.



07/23: Discuss DMZ, how many units allowed on it, type of the units.



07/30: Discuss military alliance. Mutual Protect Pact, Extended NAP



08/06: Exchange every tech of one country for every tech that the other have. Every time that a time finish a tech he would send it to the other time. Make plans of different path for each country.



???: Make a road between the countries or/and make harbors to allow exchange of goods.

???: Trade World Maps frequently without costs when the countries have the necessary technology.





Some notes: at some dates (which are always at saturdays, when we have our chats) we put inicial proposals, that are ideas already made by us and you.



JokerDF, Minister of Foreign Affairs

So, as always, what do you think?

 

[akots]

I like the idea. Seems to be a good offer. Just have to negotiate details and write up the treaty draft to vote. We would then build mostly defensive forces with occasional offensive units, load them on galleys and sail right into CDZ and other teams, kill them with the help of Immortals. And all this can be done in less than 80 turns IMHO. Hence, NAP and alliance with C3B better be for 80 turns then.

 

[Ankka]

First nice offer from them for a while, I think it's very acceptable.

 

[Cheetah]

Just got a PM from Joker. The chat dates are all for fridays, they should be for saturdays.

 

[gert-janl]

It looks really good. I am convinced that this treaty will make sure that the misunderstandings of the past can be forgotten easily.

 

[Matrix]

I disagree on one thing:

Cultural Conversion or “Flip” is considered an act of war, as so is forbidden by
this agreement.

Cultural flips happen, and it has always been a peaceful occurance in the game. The only thing we could consider is building our cities on such a way that cultural flips are highly unlikely.

I'm also still against any De-Militarized Zone and think we should plan each others border cities only when it is clear where that border will come without planning. Meaning: only when there's a small piece of land between us we should agree on who may build cities where. If we'd agree on this too soon, one of us might appear to have obtained too much land in the agreement, leading to irritation and possible war.

I'm serious: if for example C3B will keep their agreed land empty for too long, while we have built our cities on our spots for a long time, we will start thinking they have obtained too much from the agreement. And you know how much some of us can protest when we loose too much from a deal.

 

[Matrix]

It looks really good. I am convinced that this treaty will make sure that the misunderstandings of the past can be forgotten easily.

Beware: these misunderstandings can reoccur very easily within such an alliance. I repeat: the more treaties, the more misunderstanding. So an alliance is good, but we shouldn't discuss with C3B on details.

I think the fight to get as much from a deal as possible might even grow since there are no repercussions.

 

[gert-janl]

Of course the treaty isn't perfect yet. Especially the part with the cultural flips, which Matrix already mentioned, needs to be discussed. I can't imagine however, that C3B will agree to that, as it will affect themselves as badly as it does us.
When I said it looks good, I especially meant the fact that they approach us, and that they seem to be cooperative towards us.

I'm also still against any De-Militarized Zone and think we should plan each others border cities only when it is clear where that border will come without planning. Meaning: only when there's a small piece of land between us we should agree on who may build cities where. If we'd agree on this too soon, one of us might appear to have obtained too much land in the agreement, leading to irritation and possible war.

I completely agree with the border-planning thin, but I think that as long as we keep that DMZ not too large, but just a couple of tiles, it would serve perfectly as a security zone. Remember that a DMZ will force them to break a treaty if they want to use their immortals, while we only have to prepare defenses in the meantime. As long as Immortals are some kind of a threat to our defenses a DMZ is only in our advantage. That doesn't explain why they want a DMZ so eagerly, but let us just catch this chance for survival!

 

[Cheetah]

I've got another update from Joker. Here is some changes C3B wants:

People of C3B proposed some changes/additions. Here are they:

Made the last part of the "plan" more clear and added new things:
When both countries have this techs:
*Writing: Build an embassy in game
*Map Making: Make an Right on Passage in game, this would follow what we agreed on the meeting about exploration.
*Navigation: Exchange World Maps regularly, without any cost for both
*Printing Press: Exchange contacts, without any cost for both. Any new contact will be given without costs.
*Nationalism: Make a MPP in game.

At July 10th (which was July 9th) of the "plan" added:
*Discuss internal matters, like which wonders is being build, plan for future wonders. Inform the other part the resources that the country has. (The main objective of give information about wonders is to avoid both allies from building the same Wonder, we could divide these wonders are yours, these are ours, avoiding irritantion when you are about to finish a wonder and the other country finish it. The info about resources is important for the next addition)

Change at the last part of the plan, the part with "???":
???: Make a road between the countries or/and make harbors to allow exchange of goods. Every resource that one country has and the other does not, would be traded without costs, including all Luxury and Strategic Resources.


The main objective of this proposals is to make the alliance even bigger.
If you also have changes please send it to us.

Joker

 

[akots]

Sounds good. Apparently, my guess would be that they either completely lack luxuries or some other important resource (horses? how they got the wheel then?) or met some other civ which is not as friendly as we are. Or they got some intelligence about us on SoZ and iron on the island and decided to stay away from us. Or they are plain cheating and planning a treachery. The latter is unlikely. The first is more likely and second is possible as well and may be my source is right about a spy. In this case, the spy played a good positive role.

There is another possibility... Their iron source has been exhausted... but this we can know as soon as the save comes.

 

[Emp.Napoleon]

That little part about the goods trade, I think it should be traded without cost as long as we have some to spare. Like if we only had one sorce of coal we should not be forced to give it up.

 

[Ankka]

There is another possibility... Their iron source has been exhausted... but this we can know as soon as the save comes.

Now that would be some luck!

Although IIRC Iron had the second biggest chance to exhaust, after saltpeter.

 

[gert-janl]

Remember that we need another discussion with a clear outcome on the question of our Statue of Zeus. On July 10th, they want to discuss it, and if we want to maintain these cooperative steps, we should at least have a good story ready, if not tell them all.

 

[magnusmarcus]

Sounds good. Apparently, my guess would be that they either completely lack luxuries

I seem to remember seeing incense up north....perhaps where they built there new city?

 

[Cheetah]

Yes, magnusmarcus is correct, they have incense.