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A little peep under the hood of diplomacy

Discussion in 'Civ6 - Strategy & Tips' started by Victoria, May 10, 2017.

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  1. Victoria

    Victoria Regina Supporter

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    Ahh my bad, soz @historix69 ... I have only done the standard TSL
    OK Prince and suicidal means just spank them to submission or let them grow to give them a chance.
    This declaration stuff does happen, likely because you are a threat then.... Such declarations are not often repetitive so once they have been cuffed around the ear they stay in line. Do not take cities and you will get 0 warmonger and prob be buddles with them afterwards.
     
  2. historix69

    historix69 Emperor

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    According to Diplomacy Screen,
    - Kongo has met so far : England, Arabia
    - Arabia has met : Kongo, Sumeria

    I'm befriended with Sumeria (2 cities).

    It took me 35 turns to capture 3 of Kongos 5 cities. (Detached 2 Swordsmen, 3 Crossbow) Even when I give back the 3 cities (size 1,2,3), he won't cede the 4th city (size 4) to me in a peace deal. I think I will take all 5 cities and see how Diplomacy develops with the other civs.

    I also approached Mekka with a crossbow. Interestingly, Saladin sent me a settler as welcome present, maybe to lure me into range of his archer and catapult. He should have known that I was coming since he pulled the settler back in the previous turn.

    Edit :
    After investing some money into Diplomatic Delegations (75 Gold each), I noticed -2 Warmonger Points so far with every civ, even when they do not have met Kongo or Arabia. (Medieval)

    Edit 2 :
    It is still medieval era but more than 50 turns since DoW. Warmonger points are still at -1 with most civs.
    I conquered 4 of 5 cities from Kongo (incl. capital) and he will now give anything in a peace deal.
    If I return the Capital and have him cede 3 cities (size 1, 2, 3), I will receive -6 Warmonger Points with most civs.
    If I have him cede 4 cities (size 1, 2, 3, 7), I will receive -12 Warmonger Points with most civs and additionally a permanent -18 with Kongo for occupying the capital.
    If I take the last city and eliminate Kongo, I will receive -24 Warmonger Points with most civs.

    Taking the single arabian city results in -17 additional Warmonger Points with most civs.

    So eliminating both with decay in between brought me to -39 and caused most civs to denounce me. Reasonable deals are no longer possible and unreasonable demands occur frequently.
    Rome was an exception and did not display warmonger points for me.

    Elimination also means that you do not get the cash the civ has accumulated and which it would give in a peace deal, in my case about 1.000 Gold each ...
     
    Last edited: Jun 15, 2017
  3. VeronicaCardican

    VeronicaCardican Chieftain

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    I assume that this is just Demand Tribute with a different flavor.

    I agree on the worth/cost thing and I'd waher that diplo yield bonus is a percentage so when allied your deals are worth 1,5x as much as under neutral relationship.
     
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  4. historix69

    historix69 Emperor

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    New game, same trade problem after a short war in classical era.

    The game speed was modified to be slower than usual (higher tech costs).
    In classical era two neighbours DoW me. I make white peace with Norway and take all 4 cities from Germany. Warmonger points are no problem since they are low for classical era. However since taking the first german city I experienced bad trade options with all other civs, like I offer a luxury and they offer me 5 Gold (not 5 GpT), even when we are on neutral or friendly or friends.

    Is there a hidden modifier that conquering a city or eliminating a civ disqualifies you as trade partner? Warmonger points are -2, so it cannot be them.

    Edit :
    I checked my save games.
    Before the war : 6 GpT for a Luxury
    After killing ca. 20 units, but before taking a city : 3 GpT for a Luxury
    After a long war : 5 Gold for a Luxury
    So it might be a general counter for warfare (attacking/destroying units, conquering cities).
     
    Last edited: Jun 20, 2017
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  5. Victoria

    Victoria Regina Supporter

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    Very interesting... would you mind seeing how long it lasts?
    I have not encountered it but not specifically looked for it. One will have to do so.

    What I have encountered is times all the other civs have no money... can you check how much cash they have to trade with?
     
  6. historix69

    historix69 Emperor

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    AI has just enough money to afford 6 GpT, but they are not wealthy ... it is similar to the situation before the war.
    AI built mostly camp, campus and holy site, so they have not many trade routes.

    I will monitor the trade offers, but the war went into 2nd round when France and Norway declared surprise war on me only a few turns after finishing Germany. Maybe they didn't like my 3 envois in Amsterdam which made me suzerain.
     
  7. VeronicaCardican

    VeronicaCardican Chieftain

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    I always had the feeling that there is a severe trade penalty for being in the lead.

    When I am approaching hegemony, friends and frenemies alike seem to demand outrageous trade deals like 1:3 luxury exchanges. I found that accepting such lopsided deals helps keeping the peace. I don't loathe this because it feels like a natural behaviour for boardgame players. The one in the lead always pays extra for cooperation because all the other players are obligated to slow his or her progress.

    I don't know if or how this is worked in the system though.
     
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  8. Victoria

    Victoria Regina Supporter

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    I am with you on this @VeronicaCardican its part of the design.
    Early if someone is not making friends, throw them a free luxury, often friends early of a hard level is worth that
     
  9. historix69

    historix69 Emperor

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    I am on 1st or 2nd place by points and my science is about 2.5 times that of the next civ in europe. With a capital taken, I also count as 1st or 2nd in domination, since only Russia has taken another capital so far.
    I do have positive diplomatic modifiers with all civs like +15, a little bit lower for those whose agenda I violated by building a wonder, having an army, making CS quests and sending envois, founding a religion, having Great Persons, etc ... even civs with +10 or more don't mind to declare a surprise war, like Russia (friend) and Gandhi. Since it is still in classical era, it cannot be the diplomat warmonger points which are around zero.
    Trade was not perfect but worked before the war and became gradually worse, so it cannot be the leading position alone.

    The war run for around 30-40 turns.

    For a test with firetuner I would suggest following scenario :
    (Set warmonger points per era all to zero via mod or do the test in ancient/classical era.)
    Make a save game. (= Status before war)
    Check trade partners : GpT, Gold for a Luxury
    Have AI start a war with you, have some AI units killed. Look if some diplomatic value for the player or AI builds up for being in a war or for aggressive actions or so ... (Compare with diplomatic status before war.)
    Check trade partners to see if trade terms change.
    Can you modify single diplomatic values of player/AI with Firetuner? By doing so you could try to identify which value influences the trade by replacing it with its value before the war and then try to trade.
     
  10. agonistes

    agonistes wants his subs under ice!

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    There are many hidden modifiers.

    One I have noticed lately is that if you conquer a city, even one, the game plays you as a dom seeker.

    If it were me, I would have installed a turn check/timer so if x turns go by and player hasn't conquered another city, they assume you are not doming.

    Lately even dof'd friends are dowing me the turn the dof ends, dof me moment dow is over, than dow me again. Even if I've liberated their capital. A cycle of stupidity. A coder needs his a-- kicked.

    I can only imagine its because I've been slightly more aggresive lately in a few games.
     
  11. Victoria

    Victoria Regina Supporter

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    Impossible
     
  12. historix69

    historix69 Emperor

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    I experienced the drop in trade yields before I took the first city. And Warmonger points were zero. So maybe it is a counter for turns at war which slowly decays.
    If you have 20 civs on a map and they all alternately declare war on you, the counter may build up and never decay which may lead AI to declare even more wars on you.
    Every war has a minimum time of 10 turns unless you eliminate the other side before.
     
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  13. VeronicaCardican

    VeronicaCardican Chieftain

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    I could imagine that the game evaluates the player as simply as:

    IF player has more than average #cities, research, culture, score AND at least one city taken by force THEN player is a significant threat that should be contained.
     
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  14. historix69

    historix69 Emperor

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  15. VeronicaCardican

    VeronicaCardican Chieftain

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    I didn't mean to contradict you. That's more of an explanation for why former friends declare war in spite of good diplomatic relations.

    That your trades become worse before the war is just the same thing I posted above.

    I get bad trading terms even in games where I manage to get by without ever declaring war or having war declared on me. So having conquered cities seems to aggravate things but it's not necessary to raise a red flag with your opposing players regardless of visible numeric diplomacy values.
     
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  16. Victoria

    Victoria Regina Supporter

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    This is great stuff and appreciate the dialog. This whole area intrigues me because there is so much that seems to be hidden and only great sets of eyes and good minds digesting can sort it. Thanks.
     
  17. johnny_rico

    johnny_rico one more turn addict

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    I'm certainly not one to break down the code but it seems in my games if you are DoW'ing on the AI and taking cities, relationships will suffer and trade options will become useless (Trajan and Cleo don't seem to care). I've adopted the philosophy of 'if I'm going for any victory other than domination, do not DoW once in the Medieval Era'. I do like to keep high cash reserves and my military a little behind the curve to entice unruly neighbors to DoW me. Then, switch to an upgrade friendly policy, upgrade/combine units, and go on the offensive until they plead for peace.

    A lot also has to do with the AI's in the game and their respective traits. If I'm going cultural and there are many civs who respect a strong military, you can't afford to be puny or you'll build a negative rep hindering tourism option. As long I'm talking cultural and Victoria is here, thanks for the awesome guide breaking down tourism. It's become my favorite form of victory and Mvemba is my favorite leader.

    Other piece of advice to understanding relationships is crank up the intel with high priority. Play a game as Catherine de Medici; it's really an education getting those access levels maxxed out for all AI.

    Sounds like you kids are taking things several steps further with the fire-tuner. I really feel like VI has nailed diplomacy, taking the best from IV (numeric metrics) and V (the abstract comments), and combining them in a way to provide organically evolving relationships with the data to back it up provided access levels are high enough.
     
  18. agonistes

    agonistes wants his subs under ice!

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  19. Victoria

    Victoria Regina Supporter

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    Hell yes, teddy is awesome, especially on deity... deity actually helps him... it's in the culture guide I rank him as top tier CV
     
  20. Mavynn

    Mavynn Chieftain

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    Why do you say deity helps Teddy?
     

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