A little update on The Netherlands

[sysyphus]

Can you give me examples of European Muslims who say you shouldn't take the Koran literal and aren't being threatned and/or outcasted by the overall muslim community? because I don't know who they are.

Who says the threats come from the overall muslim community rather than a few extremists?

And overall fundamentalism is on the rise in the Muslim world.

Where is your proof of that?

 

[AceChilla]

Who says the threats come from the overall muslim community rather than a few extremists?

Your right ,it could be, but a recent study in the Netherlands sayed that 33% of the muslims here think a muslim party in The Netherlands should take the Islamic law (sharia) as the basis for their party's policies. I find that rather extreme. Since in the Sharia woman aren't equal to men, and thiefs should have there hands cut off. If 33% of the muslim are for such policies I'm afraid I don't really expect them to show great support of the liberals within their community's.

Still could you give me an example of those liberal muslim leaders in Europe?

Where is your proof of that?

The growing influence of fundamentalist muslims on the current regimes (Sharia has recently been introduced in Pakistan) . The terrorism against "infidel" regimes and the support for people like Bin Laden. Peope partying in the streets after 9-11. The growing movements of people wanting to create a new Ummah.

 

[The Last Conformist]

Probably, a case could be made that fundamentalism is on the rise within Christianity too. Evangelicals are growing at the expense of traditional protestant denominations in the US, and they're fairly successful missionaries abroad too.

 

[sysyphus]

Your right ,it could be, but a recent study in the Netherlands sayed that 33% of the muslims here think a muslim party in The Netherlands should take the Islamic law (sharia) as the basis for their party's policies. I find that rather extreme. Since in the Sharia woman aren't equal to men, and thiefs should have there hands cut off. If 33% of the muslim are for such policies I'm afraid I don't really expect them to show great support of the liberals within their community's.

If 33% are fundamentalists, it follows that 67% of them aren't. That means that 67% feel that Islam is compatible with democracy. Who's fighting the losing battle then?

Again, we have a similar thing here, where the pro-Sharia crowd is being yelled down by a vocal group of Muslims wanting to keep their civil rights under the national system.

Still could you give me an example of those liberal muslim leaders in Europe?

I admit I don't have any names, though I have seen profiles on television, and I recall a trip to London last year when I visited Speaker's Corner where a middle-aged Muslim man was openly calling for more liberalism in Islam, citing the Quaran to back up his views and drawing applause from a largely Muslim crowd.

The growing influence of fundamentalist muslims on the current regimes (Sharia has recently been introduced in Pakistan) . The terrorism against "infidel" regimes and the support for people like Bin Laden. Peope partying in the streets after 9-11. The growing movements of people wanting to create a new Ummah.

Many international observers believe what you see is a fundamentalist final stab at the building change to progressive though in Islamic nations.

 

[The Last Conformist]

If 33% are fundamentalists, it follows that 67% of them aren't. That means that 67% feel that Islam is compatible with democracy. Who's fighting the losing battle then?

Being the minority doesn't mean you are losing. In many European countries, the proportion of fundamentalists and extremists among Muslims is growing, and they're commoner among those born in Europe than among recent immigrants from the ME or Maghrib.

 

[sysyphus]

Being the minority doesn't mean you are losing. In many European countries, the proportion of fundamentalists and extremists among Muslims is growing, and they're commoner among those born in Europe than among recent immigrants from the ME or Maghrib.

And I'll say that "a growing cause" doesn't mean they're winning either.

How many Muslims do any of you interact with on a daily basis? I'm curious as to how much direct exposure you've had with Islam rather than through the media.

 

[The Last Conformist]

On a daily basis? None.

I've known a bunch over the years, spanning a fairly large spectrum from literalist belief to largely secularized ones.

(Would you ask the same of Christians? There is little doubt that the percentage of believers in, say, seven day creationism is higher among the Christians I've known personally than what is reportedly the case of Swedish Christians in general. This shouldn't surprise anyone, since neither the Christians nor the Muslims I've known could reasonably be expected to form a representative sample of the populations.)

 

[sysyphus]

I've known a bunch over the years, spanning a fairly large spectrum from literalist belief to largely secularized ones.

Even though your sample size is limited, it's fair to say that the spectrum you cite above shopws that there is plenty of diverse thought among Muslims (as with other religions as well).

That said, the notion that the very core of Islam makes it incompatible with democracy is pure rubbish. Obviously there are a substantial number of Muslims who believe it is, even if they don't form the majority. Who is any non-Muslim to tell them that they are wrong?

 

[AceChilla]

Nevermind...

 

[The Last Conformist]

Even though your sample size is limited, it's fair to say that the spectrum you cite above shopws that there is plenty of diverse thought among Muslims (as with other religions as well).

What I do not get is why you apparently think I should trust my own experiences on this point over data produced in the media. I do, afterall, know that the former is heavily biased, while I'd have some justification in believing that the later is the result of an honest attempt to form an representative picture of things.

 

[Hakim]

What is the danger with muslims that wants to establish sharia?

 

[AceChilla]

What is the danger with muslims that wants to establish sharia?

It's incompatible with modern liberal western democracy for starters.

 

[The Last Conformist]

What is the danger with muslims that wants to establish sharia?

That they might succeed

We non-Muslims would have to pay a special extra tax.

We'd get a criminal law system few modern westerners would be willing to accept, with bodily punishments such as the chopping off of the hands of thieves, and bizarre rules on admissable evidence (eg, the testimony of a Muslim automatically trumping that of a non-Muslim).

Even if only the personal-law component of Sharia was enforced (this is the case in several Muslim countries), you'd get legal polygyny, asymmetrical divorce laws, and various other rules generally perceived as incompatible with modern morality.

 

[sysyphus]

What I do not get is why you apparently think I should trust my own experiences on this point over data produced in the media. I do, afterall, know that the former is heavily biased, while I'd have some justification in believing that the later is the result of an honest attempt to form an representative picture of things.

If you're really trying to enlighten yourself and open your mind, it is far more trustworthy than media reporting, which is pretty much always skewwed in one direction or another.

Media reporting is little more than a summary, it tells part of the sotry. To honestly understand something one must expereince it. Other than practising Islam yourself, the closest real experience you'll get to it is to interact with practising muslims.

Consider Bart Simpson's reaction to going out for sushi: "This may just be someting you hear on the playgroud, but isn't that just raw fish?"

I agree with your views on the implementation of Sharia in western countries. It is dangerous and I strongly believe that we cannot allow the fundamental human rights that form the basis for the law in our countries to be compromised.

My ultimate point is that there are numerous Muslims who would also agree with you.

 

[Hakim]

It's incompatible with modern liberal western democracy for starters.

That sure is a problem with sharia, but I was wondering about the danger with people wanting that.

That they might succeed

How?

 

[sysyphus]

That sure is a problem with sharia, but I was wondering about the danger with people wanting that.

It's more of a danger for those who don't want it but will nonetheless be subjected to it.

 

[AceChilla]

It's more of a danger for those who don't want it but will nonetheless be subjected to it.

That's true.

But the idea that 33% of Dutch muslims do not accept our democratic system to begin with is quite worrying on itself.

 

[Hakim]

But they will have to change your constitution to tilt the democracy, will they not? It's quite hard to change the dutch constitution, isn't it?

 

[The Last Conformist]

If you're really trying to enlighten yourself and open your mind, it is far more trustworthy than media reporting, which is pretty much always skewwed in one direction or another.

By the same logic, I should trust my personal experience of people's political preferences over opinion polls published in the media. Electoral results are infallibly much closer to the later than the former. Should I conclude that the elections are fraudulent?

Media reporting is little more than a summary, it tells part of the sotry. To honestly understand something one must expereince it. Other than practising Islam yourself, the closest real experience you'll get to it is to interact with practising muslims.

Interacting with practising Muslims would give me insight to their view on things. It would be preposterous to assume that the views of the practicing Muslims I know are representative of European Muslims.

Consider Bart Simpson's reaction to going out for sushi: "This may just be someting you hear on the playgroud, but isn't that just raw fish?"

I'm afraid that I see neither the point nor the relevance of this.

I agree with your views on the implementation of Sharia in western countries. It is dangerous and I strongly believe that we cannot allow the fundamental human rights that form the basis for the law in our countries to be compromised.

My ultimate point is that there are numerous Muslims who would also agree with you.

There's little doubt about that, I think. The questions are, how large a proportion are they, how influential are they, and is their view winning out in the long run?

 

[h4ppy]

Ilumnism?

I think he might have meant the Enlightenment, but I'm not sure.