Having randomly gotten assigned 4 games that had massive forest starts, I've gotten a good look at forests on the current version. I do think forests are strong, but not for their direct yields per say. Don't give me wrong a forest tile is awesome to work, but as Funak I think pointed out a long time ago, farm/mine offers you a lot of flexibility in terms of when to grow and when to sprint with your production. I think the main issue with forests is the quick access to the herbalist. In the early game when every hammer is at a premium, you have to gauge when to get your workers. And then once you do, it takes a lot of turns to build roads and farms, etc. But with the herbalist, I get "immediate worker action". I throw down a massive improvement on all of my key tiles instantly....oh and a +2 food to boot. So even if farms are ultimately better for growth, or mines better for production, it doesn't matter because the forest cities are going to get their bonuses faster than farms, and so will start kicking off the growth train quicker. So one idea is just to move the herbalist back in the tech tree. Delay when a forest player can get that advantage so its more comparable to the farmer who has finally had the time to get their workers and start making their improvements. It might even make "gasp" chopping a possible option! Beyond that, I personally don't think the other yields are terrible. The production is nice, but its comes at a time when other improvements are starting to pick up. The science is nice because its rare to get science otherwise, but I think its really at the beginning where the forest issue occurs, not as much later on. So that's my basic thought. On a more radical level...honestly its strange that a player would want to keep forests at all. When it comes to making civilizations....its chop baby chop in real life. In real life, farms are significantly better at producing food, night and day difference. In real life, you chop chop chop that wood to use in industry. So a more extreme proposal would be....don't improve forests at all. Make it so that certain techs increase the value of their chop. Drop lumbermills, at machinery your chop bonus gets better. Then the decision is not to chop or not....its how long to wait to chop. Chop early for immediate growth, or later for bigger returns? Then I would say the only benefit late game would be tourism bonuses. That makes sense (national parks),and would give some benefit to those who didn't clearcut everything. That may be more radical than we want to go at this point in the mod, but it would be more like real life, and would make it so that forests don't become late game super tiles.