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A new, 4th affinity?

Discussion in 'CivBE - General Discussions' started by Blue3, Aug 20, 2015.

  1. Galgus

    Galgus Chieftain

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    I've never really liked the beings of energy trope, and that kind of tech isn't accessed in BE to have an affinity based on it - unless you count becoming a program.

    Though I think my idea differentiates from the three affinities, I'd agree that nothing I've seen here is truly fourth affinity material and that much of it is either an affinity rehashed or a simple ideology.

    That includes my own idea - The three affinities are extremely thematically strong for a variety of reasons.
     
  2. Blue3

    Blue3 Chieftain

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    Even my idea?

    Harmony: humans adapt to planet
    Purity: planet adapts to humans
    Supremacy: humans adapt to all planets and change planet

    "Classic" space colonization (Simplicity?): humans coexist with planet, neither changing, humans live in secluded domed cities or cities that hover over surface
     
  3. Galgus

    Galgus Chieftain

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    That feels like either less ambitious Purity or a possible interpretation of the Purity / Harmony hybrid.
     
  4. Blue3

    Blue3 Chieftain

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    But with that same logic, couldn't you also say Supremacy is just a combination of Purity and Harmony?

    I see there's 4 options:
    1. change the world
    2. change yourselves
    3. change both
    4. change neither

    1-purity
    2-harmony
    3-supremacy
    4-simplicity?
     
  5. Galgus

    Galgus Chieftain

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    Supremacy is distinct from Purity and Harmony in wanting to be environmentally agnostic, faith and enthusiasm in a bright future through sentient AI's, augmenting humanity by making them more machine-like, and a desire to reduce or eliminate biological needs.

    None of those traits are present in the other Affinities, though they could manifest in hybrids with Supremacy.

    Also, Supremacy doesn't really care about the planet either way.

    They aren't averse to changing it, but they also have no real enthusiasm for changing it.

    One of Supremacy's central tenants is to function regardless of the environment.

    It views both Purity's terraforming and Harmony's preservation as inefficient.
    ___________________________________________________________

    As stated earlier, "change neither" could be interpreted as a possible fusion of Purity and Harmony, taking the desire to not change humanity and the desire to not change the planet and overriding what conflicts with the combination.

    Personally I prefer the opposite interpretation in "change both", but "change neither" is a reasonable version of the hybrid.
    ____________________________________________________________________

    Someone once elaborated on how the Affinities are somewhat defined by different views on the Great Mistake, and to show how they are thematically strong I'll try to roughly summarize it here.

    Each Affinity emphasizes a part of the tragedy of the Great Mistake, and so each take different lessons from it.
    _________________________________________________

    Purity emphasizes the human suffering and cultural instability it brought as nations collapsed and were reforged.

    Beyond Earth seems to show a massive loss of historical knowledge among the average layman.

    This loss of knowledge could set humanity far behind in social and philosophical progress and lead to the repeat of old mistakes, aside from being tragic in its own right.

    Also imagine how many irreplacable works of art and artifacts were lost alongside lowered standards of living.

    Purity wishes for this to never happen again by ensuring that the past is remembered while building a world of plenty for humanity.
    _____________________________________________________

    Harmony emphasizes the ecological damage of the Great Mistake.

    It sees needless misery and suffering brought because of it, with a tragic loss of species diversity going by some quotes.

    In wanting to safeguard humanity's future and preserve the beauty of the new world, a second chance, Harmony is somewhat paranoid on the possibility of a new Great Mistake if humanity disregards or attempts to replace the new world.
    _____________________________________________________

    Supremacy emphasizes the loss of technological progress in the relative stagnation of the Great Mistake.

    The dreams of those believing in a brighter future through Supremacy associated technologies withered, and Supremacy wants to see that future come true.

    Supremacy wishes to be agnostic to the environment so that no new Great Mistake could ever set technological progress back as it once did, and to carry on old transhumanist dreams.
     
  6. Selten

    Selten Chieftain

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    The more affinities you add the more hybrid combinations you have to deal with. With only 3 base affinities, their are 3 hybrids (with a possible fourth if you count the one that combines all 3). With 4 affinities there are 6 hybrids (and possibly 4 'triple' hybrids and another 'quadruple' hybrid). That's 10 - 15 affinity routes to assign attributes for and create units for. Lets not even speak of 5 affinities.

    Needless to say, there are enough balance problems with 3 affinities and 3 hybrids. I don't think we want the extra problems that all the extra hybrids would bring.
     
  7. Halbbruder

    Halbbruder Chieftain

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    I was thinking the same thing if there was going to be a 4th affinity. But it is unlikely that it would happen because how would the hybrids work and then you'd have to factor in triple hybrids and what a complete hybrid mix would mean. Besides, it would have to ensure that it differs significantly from harmony, because in some ways progenitors and harmonists do seem to have one thing in common, and that's transcendence.

    As for affinity roles, purity is kind of the default affinity in that nothing should change. Terraforming the world to your advantage would suit either supremacy or purity, but the supremacists would try to rely on this as little as possible.
     
  8. Lord Tirian

    Lord Tirian Erratic Poster

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    Civ:BE seems to be going for a slighter "harder" sci-fi vibe in general. Psionics or ascension to another level of existence doesn't seem to be a natural fit.

    Furthermore, "ascension" is totally Supremacy taken to an extreme: it's a neural upload into the universe itself and represents the ultimate goal of Supremacy, total independence of humanity from any environment.
     
  9. Galgus

    Galgus Chieftain

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    The biggest difference in terraforming I see between Purity and Supremacy is that Supremacy focuses on reducing or eliminating traditional needs while Purity focuses on better fulfilling them.

    Supremacy becomes adept at uploading and cybernetics; and probably focuses more on what virtual worlds it creates than a pleasing existence in the real one.

    Purity on the other hand becomes adept at maximizing outputs and creating sturdy, reliable technology to sustain human life.

    One could kind of view it as efficiency vs production.

    It plays in nicely with Supremacy units being sleek and efficient and Purity units being rugged and powerful.
    ________________________

    Agreed on that fourth affinity idea, the superior hybrid system just isn't very compatible with it.

    Though I don't think its confirmed at all that the Progenitors went through transcendence.
    ___________________________________________________________________________________

    @ Lord Tirian:

    Agreed, it is a very Supremacy oriented goal.

    Psionics kind of makes sense with Aliens and the Mind Flower, but blatantly bringing it into the game would definitely distort the harder sci-fi.
     
  10. poom3619

    poom3619 Ping Pang Poom!

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    In lore side, The 3 affinities is quite abstracted and we mostly left to fill the blank, which is IMO is one of few thing in CivBE that worked as the dev intended.

    Barring the human/deity ascension, most of the trait of proposed 4th affinity I saw so far sound like, as some said, sub-affinity of one or two in CivBE. I actually prefer sub-afiinity in game as a narrower definition of existing abstraction.

    I really doubt that the main game with any number expansion will have additional affinity to stir the game balance (if it have one). But this idea could become a mod by people who capable of and willing to do it.

    I wish to see some of this as a mod actually.
     
  11. Lord Tirian

    Lord Tirian Erratic Poster

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    Not really, that's just something people seem to be reading into, extrapolating from other telepathic hive minds in sci-fi (including SMAC's Transcendence), reading through the Mind Flower's pedia entry, the Harmony hive mind is more akin to something like an ant colony. The Mind Flower is the master organism facilitating the hive-like consciousness, but it relies on cybernetics to do the interfacing with human thoughts.

    It reads a lot more like the Gaia superorganism given a brain than a telepathic link.
    I do wish the game gave us, every now and then, choices between affinity bonuses and some lore to go with it (even if it's just a name, the way Civ5 gave every policy/ideology tenet a name). That would really allow people to "build" their own little interpretation of the affinities.
     
  12. Galgus

    Galgus Chieftain

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    That doesn't explain how it connects to the Aliens who presumably don't have cybernetic links to receive its thoughts.

    Ants work by simple organisms adapted to act on simple instincts guided by pheromones - that doesn't really apply to the Aliens unless you argue that there is a hugely complex and unlikely chemical and instinctive connection already present.

    At that point it may as well be psionics for how improbably complicated the system is.

    I could see an ecosystem engineered to work to some end, but not one where instinct and chemical signals would be enough to simulate a hive mind based on alien behavior beyond the most basic triggers.
    ___________________________________________________________

    Choosing bonuses and the ability to somewhat build interpretations of affinities is more or less the goal of the Affinity Traits system that DefiantMars and I have been working on.
     
  13. poom3619

    poom3619 Ping Pang Poom!

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    That would be truly great addition to the game that I wish someone to mod it in, as I think it would take 2nd expansion to the dev to do that. This post start to make me wonder why they didn't port Ideology in BNW and build from that instead of flat additive bonus we have in CivBE :mad:

    (and people say it's Civ5 BNW in space... duh.)
     
  14. Blue3

    Blue3 Chieftain

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    Not even considering gameplay mechanics, but trying to predict the future of real-life, the future of humanity and the future of space colonization... is there really no other way than Harmony, Purity, or Supremacy, or some combination?
     
  15. poom3619

    poom3619 Ping Pang Poom!

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    No. At least in distant future IMO, the three affinity are so broad they can almost interpret into any or combination of them. Some proposed affinity here is either highly developed affinity that out of scope of the game or going near space mysticism or applying Kyptonite on mankind.

    It's like asking for smartphone or steampunk weapon in 19th century if you ask me.
     
  16. DefiantMars

    DefiantMars Chieftain

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    The way that I see it, Affinities are illustrations representative of a spectrum of concepts that all work towards a particular ideal. These being the response to the Great Mistake and their subsequent beliefs on advancing humanity taking into account their new planet.

    Between the base affinities and the hybrid affinities, there are 6 methodologies to this end.

    There are certainly other ways that mankind could advance. We could say "screw it" and take what we want from the planet. Repeating the mistakes on Old Earth and just moving to the next planet over and over. I don't think this would fly in Beyond Earth, as it goes against the overall hopeful theme. Though it is a compelling driver and might make for an interesting story in either another game or as a malicious faction.

    Another potential path and one that I would like to see could possibly be one that emphasizes expanding the mind and developing psychic and psionic abilities. Though the more domestic aspects of the society would obviously need to be defined.
     
  17. Ryika

    Ryika likes cookies and milk.

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    Another possible way would be a Society not getting anywhere and just imploding on itself.
    Gameplay-wise it would work like this: You reach level 5 in that Affinity and you automatically lose.
     
  18. DefiantMars

    DefiantMars Chieftain

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    My little "Affinity Traits" conceptual Project that I've been working on with Galgus is an attempt to add a layer of player interpretation to their chosen affinity or affinities. I'm not comfortable enough with the game concepts (mechanically speaking, I am a Noob after all) to attempt trees like Policies and Tenets. I am eager to see more attempts to create "affinities with customization".

    I have a few questions with such systems:

    • There is the matter of Hybrid affinities. Do they get their own trees?
    • How do you emphasize the variations within affinity?
    • Can you make them compelling thematically and mechanically?
    • How many options do you give a player?
    • Can you make them cover a broad enough range of choices that players won't feel like they can't make "their" affinity?
    • And so on...

    I've tried to answer these questions to the best of my ability, but I fear my inexperience is limiting the scope and depth of my proposed system.
     
  19. Doviello

    Doviello Chieftain

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    And then your civilization disappear and you become a derelict settlement, for an AI explorer to excavate and get 25 culture.
     
  20. Blue3

    Blue3 Chieftain

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    Any more ideas on a 4th affinity?
     

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