Lord Emsworth
Emperor
This is a PTW game, if I am not mistaken, where corruption works the same as in Vanilla. So, that is what you are missing
, but otherwise you are entirely right.
A noobs cry for help
- Thread starter Ronojoy1917
- Start date
This is a PTW game, if I am not mistaken, where corruption works the same as in Vanilla. So, that is what you are missing
, but otherwise you are entirely right.
The test was set up in PTW, thus the conversation. I don't have C3C, but from what I have read, RCP doesn't exist in C3C due to a fix. Since the test is in PTW, it is relevant.
I've played this map many times for test games - the corruption is about 20% at RCP3 (Every 5th shield/gold is corrupt). At RCP 5 it is somewhere around 50%. So I think that the move from RCP4 to RCP7 would be signifant, losing at least somewhere between 20-30% efficiency, if not much more.
Okay, after almost a year I thought I would resurrect this post to fulfill my promise to make France, Germany, Japan and China pay for their ruthless, dishonorable treatment of India. I have some extra time now and figured I would get some closure on this game. I hate leaving unfinished games laying about. France and Germany are already destroyed starting in 1430 AD.
What I noticed as I fired up the game was how much my play has changed in less than a year. At the start of this thread I was a die-hard monarchy player. I looked at this game after 9 months and
. I definately had some tweaking to do. It was so bad I decided to jump to republic before making the final switch to democracy - something I would not have contemplated if I were not a religious Civ. I figure the two swaps probalby saved me at least the 1 extra round of anarchy it took.
Although it is only a warlord game, it feels like a much, much harder game. Because of some early game decisions the cities are placed all wrong. Well, enough griping, here is the continued story up to the Industiral Age. Once I have rails I will continue the conquest. The odd shape of the landmass and my lack of even basic infrastructure made an invasion undesireable. I don't think I could have generated the ship chain much faster than rails. I will need an invasion fleet for Roman and Egypt, though.
Here is the current World:
Here is Japan, the next Invasion target:
And the Log:
What I noticed as I fired up the game was how much my play has changed in less than a year. At the start of this thread I was a die-hard monarchy player. I looked at this game after 9 months and
. I definately had some tweaking to do. It was so bad I decided to jump to republic before making the final switch to democracy - something I would not have contemplated if I were not a religious Civ. I figure the two swaps probalby saved me at least the 1 extra round of anarchy it took.Although it is only a warlord game, it feels like a much, much harder game. Because of some early game decisions the cities are placed all wrong. Well, enough griping, here is the continued story up to the Industiral Age. Once I have rails I will continue the conquest. The odd shape of the landmass and my lack of even basic infrastructure made an invasion undesireable. I don't think I could have generated the ship chain much faster than rails. I will need an invasion fleet for Roman and Egypt, though.
Here is the current World:
Here is Japan, the next Invasion target:
And the Log:
Spoiler :
This set began with a period of peaceful building. I forgot that I couldn't just disband cities to clear my core so I had to 'produced' them out of existence. Went on a building binge and got rails put down. I'm the tech leader; the AI cannot catch up now. I'm building wonders just because I can.
Because of the resource grouping in Vanilla, I have 7 sources of coal in my lands - all the known coal I can see, though in later turns, 2 sources of coal are exhausted. Since I don't get a 'new coal' found message, I assume they were dropped on the AI. I identified at least one source went to China.
Peaceful Turns: 1530AD - 1635AD
By the end of my building phase I am making huge sums of money and I am tech trading for even more, though business has been slowing down. As I consider my position, I decide to destroy Japan. But I wasn't counting on Persia and Egypt signing a MPP and then:
So by 1650 AD I am at war with everyone but Rome. It is India against the world again. But now I have Infantry and artillery. I'm having a rough time pulling GLs though. Very frustrating, but typical of my luck. The RNG is still murderous to boot, but once again, my cavalry seem to retreat nearly 100% of the time unless the defender is redlined.
War Turns: 1640-1670
The shape of the world by 1670AD:
Because of the resource grouping in Vanilla, I have 7 sources of coal in my lands - all the known coal I can see, though in later turns, 2 sources of coal are exhausted. Since I don't get a 'new coal' found message, I assume they were dropped on the AI. I identified at least one source went to China.
Peaceful Turns: 1530AD - 1635AD
Spoiler :
By the end of my building phase I am making huge sums of money and I am tech trading for even more, though business has been slowing down. As I consider my position, I decide to destroy Japan. But I wasn't counting on Persia and Egypt signing a MPP and then:
Spoiler :
So by 1650 AD I am at war with everyone but Rome. It is India against the world again. But now I have Infantry and artillery. I'm having a rough time pulling GLs though. Very frustrating, but typical of my luck. The RNG is still murderous to boot, but once again, my cavalry seem to retreat nearly 100% of the time unless the defender is redlined.
War Turns: 1640-1670
Spoiler :
The shape of the world by 1670AD:
The war from 1670 AD to 1700 AD. Japan is no more and I've set a chokepoint between India and China. China is having troubles - they have both the missing sources of coal, but they have no salt and are using spears and pikes for defense. They do come up with Cav and a few muskets after I press the attack - they must have traded for salt - probably with Egypt, they have at least 4 sources. Even so, they are not upgrading fast and I am coming across a mixture of defensive units and other old units.
When Japan falls I capture Sun's. Rome foolishly signed a trade embargo against me, which settles me on a conquest victory. China should be rounded up quick. ToE is about to come in and a generated GL has helped with a palace move to expand my productive core. I'll need to start working on ships for an invasion fleet.
This is the 3rd debt repaid and the original instigators back in 280AD - 300 AD are now vanquished.
Log 1670 AD - 1700 AD
When Japan falls I capture Sun's. Rome foolishly signed a trade embargo against me, which settles me on a conquest victory. China should be rounded up quick. ToE is about to come in and a generated GL has helped with a palace move to expand my productive core. I'll need to start working on ships for an invasion fleet.
This is the 3rd debt repaid and the original instigators back in 280AD - 300 AD are now vanquished.
Log 1670 AD - 1700 AD
Spoiler :
India has seized control of the entire continent - well, unless you count the handful of cities the Romans are trying to establish. I think of them more as gifts.
By 1762 AD, India's forces have staged an invasion of China's last stronghold. As they are defending with spear phalanxes, it is unlikely they will give India's 10 cavalry regiments and 2 battalions of infantry any trouble. India is still 10 turns away from tanks, so the invasion should be painless.
This photo documents India's triumphant invasion and China's last stand.
Pleas for a peace treaty have been flatly denied. It was China, after all, that declared war in 1645 AD. Indian diplomats also remind Mao that it was China that declared war on India in 450 AD. India cannot continue to accept such reckless behavior from an unruly world power. Now India will accept only unconditional surrender.
Log 1705 AD - 1762 AD
By 1762 AD, India's forces have staged an invasion of China's last stronghold. As they are defending with spear phalanxes, it is unlikely they will give India's 10 cavalry regiments and 2 battalions of infantry any trouble. India is still 10 turns away from tanks, so the invasion should be painless.
This photo documents India's triumphant invasion and China's last stand.
Pleas for a peace treaty have been flatly denied. It was China, after all, that declared war in 1645 AD. Indian diplomats also remind Mao that it was China that declared war on India in 450 AD. India cannot continue to accept such reckless behavior from an unruly world power. Now India will accept only unconditional surrender.
Log 1705 AD - 1762 AD
Spoiler :
The final invasion of China and conquest of the island is quick. China is destroyed in 1768 AD. The 4th and final instigator is now dead; though Egypt and Persia are now on the list. Rome is also on the list, but as the last and final civ. I actually hope either Egypt or Persia will destroy them first.
This message has been long in coming:
India declares on Rome in 1768 AD (who needs peace?) and that pulls in Egypt on a MPP. India invades the Roman/Egyptian island in 1770 AD, landing next to Cumae with an 12/12 Cav army, 3 artillery, 1 combat settler, 4 infantry. Naval battles also start to heat up as India fights to defend the invasion route though the Sea of New Bengal.
Cumae is razed in 1772 AD and India establishes a permanent foothold by founding Hyderabad - and seizing spices at the same time (6th luxury). There is much rejoicing throughout the land even though the democratic people of India were initially uncertain about the DOW on Rome.
India follows this with DOW on Persia in 1780 AD. Once again the main continent is reserved for the people of India only.
Make peace with Rome in 1784 AD and turn them against Egypt and Persia with a MPP.
First tank vs spear battle occurs in 1788 AD at Hieraconpolis - and results in a flawless victory of tank over spear in one of the biggest upsets of the war. The odds were 20:1 for
The current state of the world:
Log 1764AD-1788AD
Decided that when this is done I am going to make a list of the difference between Vanilla and PTW. They are almost different games! I'm almost afraid to play C3C when the disk arrives!
This message has been long in coming:
India declares on Rome in 1768 AD (who needs peace?) and that pulls in Egypt on a MPP. India invades the Roman/Egyptian island in 1770 AD, landing next to Cumae with an 12/12 Cav army, 3 artillery, 1 combat settler, 4 infantry. Naval battles also start to heat up as India fights to defend the invasion route though the Sea of New Bengal.
Cumae is razed in 1772 AD and India establishes a permanent foothold by founding Hyderabad - and seizing spices at the same time (6th luxury). There is much rejoicing throughout the land even though the democratic people of India were initially uncertain about the DOW on Rome.
India follows this with DOW on Persia in 1780 AD. Once again the main continent is reserved for the people of India only.
Make peace with Rome in 1784 AD and turn them against Egypt and Persia with a MPP.
First tank vs spear battle occurs in 1788 AD at Hieraconpolis - and results in a flawless victory of tank over spear in one of the biggest upsets of the war. The odds were 20:1 for
The current state of the world:
Log 1764AD-1788AD
Spoiler :
Decided that when this is done I am going to make a list of the difference between Vanilla and PTW. They are almost different games! I'm almost afraid to play C3C when the disk arrives!
In 1808 India puts an end to Egyptian arrogance. India had always dealt fairly with Egypt until receiving their declaration of war in 1645 AD in defense of Persia, the aggressor in the Persian-Indian war that began in 1640 AD when Persian warriors were reported as crossing into Indian lands. Xerxes only made the weakest attempts to claim the probes were 'mistakes' and when India demanded a resolution, Persia declared.
The most current engagement began in 1768 AD when India declared war on Rome. This decision did not come easy to India, for Rome had never declared war against Egypt. But Rome had entered into a military alliance with Egypt for protection and that sealed their fate. The Indian people also remembered the trade embargo that lasted 79 years when Rome sided with Egypt in 1685 AD.
By 1808 AD Egypt is destroyed and Rome has been reduced to 1 mountainous city, held under guard by two Indian tank divisions.
India also declared war on Persia in 1780 AD. In 1808 AD, all colonial settlements have been destroyed and Persia is pushed back to their island homeland. India is turning out invasion transports and warships to cover the invasion sea lanes. I have tried to convince units to move from one transport to another on the open seas but my military commanders refuse. They claim that we required a 'software upgrade' to perform this activity. Not for the first time I regret the decision to research computers.
Log: 1790AD -1808AD
The most current engagement began in 1768 AD when India declared war on Rome. This decision did not come easy to India, for Rome had never declared war against Egypt. But Rome had entered into a military alliance with Egypt for protection and that sealed their fate. The Indian people also remembered the trade embargo that lasted 79 years when Rome sided with Egypt in 1685 AD.
By 1808 AD Egypt is destroyed and Rome has been reduced to 1 mountainous city, held under guard by two Indian tank divisions.
India also declared war on Persia in 1780 AD. In 1808 AD, all colonial settlements have been destroyed and Persia is pushed back to their island homeland. India is turning out invasion transports and warships to cover the invasion sea lanes. I have tried to convince units to move from one transport to another on the open seas but my military commanders refuse. They claim that we required a 'software upgrade' to perform this activity. Not for the first time I regret the decision to research computers.
Log: 1790AD -1808AD
Spoiler :
This was the state of the world in 280AD when India elected Raliuven as their warlord.
India vanquished Persia and Rome in 1824 AD, destroying first Persia:
and then Rome:
Conquest Victory was declared in 1826 AD and all India rejoiced. After a near continuous war over a period fo 1546 years, India proved to be the dominant civilization of the world.
Joan sums up India's win the best:
1826 AD: Conquest Victory. History will remember me as Gandhi the Terrible. Final Score 1472.
Picked up game in 280AD turn 143.
End Game in 1826AD turn 378.
Turns played: 235
And finally the log of 1808AD-1826AD including an interesting picture of Persian wine country:
India vanquished Persia and Rome in 1824 AD, destroying first Persia:
and then Rome:
Conquest Victory was declared in 1826 AD and all India rejoiced. After a near continuous war over a period fo 1546 years, India proved to be the dominant civilization of the world.
Joan sums up India's win the best:
1826 AD: Conquest Victory. History will remember me as Gandhi the Terrible. Final Score 1472.
Picked up game in 280AD turn 143.
End Game in 1826AD turn 378.
Turns played: 235
And finally the log of 1808AD-1826AD including an interesting picture of Persian wine country:
Spoiler :
ChaosArbiter
King
I like that picture of you destroying the Egyptians - if you don't look too closely, it looks like you have some kind of cyborg Worker with a Tank body in place of legs.
Difference between Vanilla & PTW
• Can make multiple palace builds.
• Palace & Armies only cost 400 shields (not very good pre-builds)
• Swords & Archers don’t upgrade.
• When the advisor suggests that you change a build, you can’t go to the city view to evaluate.
• Science research is resolved after all city builds are completed.
• In the city view, can’t right click on a unit to see stats and shield costs (Civopedia entry).
• Armies can’t pillage.
• Can’t ship chain– couldn’t find a way to wake up units at sea to transfer them.
• Resources and luxuries have tight grouping.
• Workers are not disbanded when captured by the AI. Usually the AI will disband if the workers can’t be evacuated; they tend to disband non-native units while trying to save native workers when possible. Not in Vanilla. All workers are saved, even if there is no hope of evacuating them from the battlefield.
• Razed cities always produce slaves equal to 50% of the citizens, round down. This is much higher than PTW and PTW is not reliable.
• Can capture all cities, no auto-raze.
• Can’t abandon cities at will – need to ‘produce’ them out of existence, disbanding into workers or settlers.
• When ToE builds, can’t pick techs that are learned – they automatically backfill the tech tree. ToE is practically worthless.
• When a new tech allows a better unit to be built, cities already set to build outdated units remain as set. For example, cities set to build musket remain as muskets even when infantry becomes available.
• Slave workers and settlers become ‘barbarians’ after their civ is destroyed, or shortly thereafter. Not sure what determines this. When a barbarian settler founds a city, the citizen is of the native civ.
• The AI will attack armies in the open, even on suicide runs.
Observations:
Cavalry retreats seemed to be 100% if not fighting a redlined unit. When I started in 1420AD, no failed cav attack against a non-redlined unit resulted in a loss of the cav. I noticed this earlier with horsemen and then thought it had changed for War Elephants. But now I am convinced the retreat rate is 100% (or nearly so). Not sure if War Elephants were different because they are a UU?
Research was 4 turns on almost everything well into the Modern Age. Most of the time I was at 40-50% research for 4 turns as a republic/democratic government.
RNG was brutal, worse than I’m accustomed to.
AI was very erratic – it would often DOW after begging for peace.
• Can make multiple palace builds.
• Palace & Armies only cost 400 shields (not very good pre-builds)
• Swords & Archers don’t upgrade.
• When the advisor suggests that you change a build, you can’t go to the city view to evaluate.
• Science research is resolved after all city builds are completed.
• In the city view, can’t right click on a unit to see stats and shield costs (Civopedia entry).
• Armies can’t pillage.
• Can’t ship chain– couldn’t find a way to wake up units at sea to transfer them.
• Resources and luxuries have tight grouping.
• Workers are not disbanded when captured by the AI. Usually the AI will disband if the workers can’t be evacuated; they tend to disband non-native units while trying to save native workers when possible. Not in Vanilla. All workers are saved, even if there is no hope of evacuating them from the battlefield.
• Razed cities always produce slaves equal to 50% of the citizens, round down. This is much higher than PTW and PTW is not reliable.
• Can capture all cities, no auto-raze.
• Can’t abandon cities at will – need to ‘produce’ them out of existence, disbanding into workers or settlers.
• When ToE builds, can’t pick techs that are learned – they automatically backfill the tech tree. ToE is practically worthless.
• When a new tech allows a better unit to be built, cities already set to build outdated units remain as set. For example, cities set to build musket remain as muskets even when infantry becomes available.
• Slave workers and settlers become ‘barbarians’ after their civ is destroyed, or shortly thereafter. Not sure what determines this. When a barbarian settler founds a city, the citizen is of the native civ.
• The AI will attack armies in the open, even on suicide runs.
Observations:
Cavalry retreats seemed to be 100% if not fighting a redlined unit. When I started in 1420AD, no failed cav attack against a non-redlined unit resulted in a loss of the cav. I noticed this earlier with horsemen and then thought it had changed for War Elephants. But now I am convinced the retreat rate is 100% (or nearly so). Not sure if War Elephants were different because they are a UU?
Research was 4 turns on almost everything well into the Modern Age. Most of the time I was at 40-50% research for 4 turns as a republic/democratic government.
RNG was brutal, worse than I’m accustomed to.
AI was very erratic – it would often DOW after begging for peace.
Lord Emsworth
Emperor
The differences that you are seeing, at least most of them, aren't differences between Vanilla and PTW. They are differences between early releases of C3 on one hand, and later releases C3 and PTW on the other hand.
Chances are that in your version you can also go and plant forest over terrain improvements in foreign territory and that you receive more shields from pop-rushing.
ETA: And some of what you point out simply does not sound quite right:
Chances are that in your version you can also go and plant forest over terrain improvements in foreign territory and that you receive more shields from pop-rushing.
ETA: And some of what you point out simply does not sound quite right:
The cost of the Palace depends on the size of your empire. Armies cost 400 shields in any version and expansion.
I would be very surprised if that were true.
Can't say there - the Version that this was played on is Vanilla 1.07. Maybe that accounts for some of the differences.
Didn't test this, so I don't know. However, one thing that was annoying is that immediately after razing an enemy city I often could not rail my way through the territory, sometimes for several turns. Very annoying.
Hmm, for some reason I thought armies cost more. You are correct, of course. However, regarding the palace, I did check. It is 400 shields. I realized the problem when I started a prebuild for Hoovers. I wasn't paying attention to the shield count and switched the palace with only a few turns left over as a prebuild - and suddenly Hoovers required 19 more turns to build.
Here is 520AD when I have 7 cities. The palace build is 400 shields. 8spt@50 turns.
Here is 1824 when I have 70+ cities. The palace build is 400 shields.
Either that is one tough sliding scale or the palace build is always 400 shields.
RE: research after city builds - well, there's really no screen print I can provide that would prove this point. I came across this when I was expecting Motors to come in and when the cities started to cycle I started looking for tanks in the building queue. I couldn't figure out why I couldn't build them, I had the resources. After the cities cycled, the tech arrived and I had to go back and switch all the cities over to tanks after the fact. It didn't even dawn on me until then that it was out of sequence.
Lord Emsworth
Emperor
It accounts for nearly all them. I have played a lot of Vanilla 1.29f.
And I just recall a few more. In the early release you couldn't upgrade to your UU. I remember one game where I wanted to be extra-clever and build a whole number of warriors with the intention of upgrading to Immortals. "Thinking themselves wise ... ", IOW it did not work. I could build Immortals, but I couldn't upgrade and so was left with dozens of warriors; remember, they normally upgrade to Swords, which in turn upgrade nowhere. No swords, no upgrade to the sword-replacement, that's it.
And if I am not mistaken armies could not blitz at all in earlier releases. This is hearsay, though.
OK, ok, I am convinced already.
Just chalk it up as a difference.Looks like another diffenrence too. I just thought that would be too much, but then again ...
Hey, I'm just glad that it make sense to someone. 
According to my Vanilla 1.07 Hall of Fame, it looks like I played about a dozen games, most at chieften or warlord. I guess when I went to PTW I accepted all of the changes without question. Probably because I didn't know what I was doing (which is a nice slight-of-hand to suggest I DO know what I am doing now
). Going back was a real shock - I just didn't remember SO many changes.
Your comment about upgrading UU also makes sense - at one point in the log I upgraded 9 horses to cavalry. Though I don't remember it, I must not have been able to upgrade them to WE and the first available upgrade was Cav.
What a weird game. But it did make for an interesting play!
According to my Vanilla 1.07 Hall of Fame, it looks like I played about a dozen games, most at chieften or warlord. I guess when I went to PTW I accepted all of the changes without question. Probably because I didn't know what I was doing (which is a nice slight-of-hand to suggest I DO know what I am doing now
). Going back was a real shock - I just didn't remember SO many changes.Your comment about upgrading UU also makes sense - at one point in the log I upgraded 9 horses to cavalry. Though I don't remember it, I must not have been able to upgrade them to WE and the first available upgrade was Cav.
What a weird game. But it did make for an interesting play!
