A question concerning blackmail/tribute/trading

[Unas]

Hi everybody,

I've got a question that may have been posed before, but I couldn't find information on it. So here it is:

Whenever I try to force other civs to get technology or gold, I hardly get anything at all. Even if I am at war with someone and have brought them to the brink of destruction, and they beg for peace, they always tell me that it wouldn't be possible for them to give me one of their latest techs in exchange for a truce (instead: 10 gold + 2/turn or other lousy offers). If I demand tribute, no one ever gives me technology, no matter how superior I am to that civ.

The same is true when I'm trading techs. I've looked at several games here on this forum, and the players always trade 1 advanced technology for several older techs. I never get such good offers. If I trade MC really early, for example, I am only offered horseback riding + 20 gold in return or something like that, even if the other civs have much more knowledge (or gold) to share. And if I traded techs (I don't do so anymore), I paid roughly 50 % more in beakers than they did, which means if I was asked for a tech that had cost 1,000 beakers I would have had to give a tech worth 1,500 beakers. And it wasn't me who initiated the trade because I wanted that tech so badly!

I don't see where this comes from. There is no difference if I am on good or bad terms with other civs.

So I would like to know how to rip them off their techs correctly. Or is this just normal?

I don't want to bore anyone if this is common knowledge, but I'd be pleased if someone could at least give me a link to a corresponding thread.

Thanks in advance and greetings,

Unas

 

[automator]

From what I see in games:

1. Civs are VERY reluctant to simply give up techs (for peace or as a demand)
2. In trading techs, Civs tend to give you a lopsided trade unless they are friendly with you (in which case they'll give you a slight bonus)

 

[dalessi12]

When trading techs with other civs, you will ALWAYS have to trade more beakers to them than you get in return, but it is not 50% more. For example, you said you needed to give 1500 for 1000, this is roughly what I experience also. But when the techs are more advanced, the 50% comes down. You might get away with trading 14000 beakers for 12500, etc.

When people here mention trading a tech for many techs they are usually referring to early techs. And they are always talking about trading with several AIs. If you get Alphabet first, you can trade it to every other AI for ALL of the lesser techs you skipped (like religious techs, ect.) You should look to see what everyone has to trade before you start trading. This will allow maximum bang for your buck, because sometimes you can trade first for other techs that are not widely held, then add them to Alphabet (or whatever you have) to get another expensive tech.

Also, the AI will rarely give you a tech for peace, and almost never if you threaten. The easiest way to get a tech from an AI, is to be "friendly" with it relationship-wise, and to ask for a cheap tech. This usually means you are already behind in techs (higher levels).

As for gold, I have found the AI will give gold (decent gold too, several hundred, and all they have) when threatened, especially if you have a big "power" rating advantage, and especially if they are at war with someone else at the time.

 

[carl corey]

I wonder if the AI giving you a tech for free might be influenced by the fact that you gave in to its requests when they asked for one? Or maybe it's a combination of this and its friendliness toward you?

 

[kcbrett5]

even if the other civs have much more knowledge (or gold) to share.

In my experience, techs are worth more to the AI if they are less widely held. If you are first to discover it, you can get better deals.

But I don't they the AI values all beakers evenly. If you trade techs that will allow them to build wonders that haven't been built yet, you will get better returns. Of course, then you have to race them to build that wonder if you so desire.

 

[Cookie Crumbs]

Another thing is that the AI doesn't understand the concept of supply and demand with techs -i.e. if they have a tech that most have they still want to rip you off for it (especially stuff like Monarchy/miitary techs), even though you can shop around and get a better deal, and that I can research it quicker. I wish they'd program the AI to at least offer you a better deal for a tech everyone else has.

 

[Holbek]

Standard size map, prince and monarch.
I've had some success with taking 2 major cities from the AI, then sueing for peace ASAP. Then continue with this untill the AI is wiped out. Usually gives me 3-5 techs from a 8-16 city AI.
Sometimes its necessary to wipe out 1 of the border-tundra-cities of his, but not always.

Take to few cities, without killing of his military won't give you any techs.
Taking to many cities won't give you any techs, as the AI knows he is as good as dead, and see no point in adding anything to your strength.

The AI needs to stand in a situation where he thinks he has a good chance of surviving, and flourishing, after the war, if you want any techs out of him.
At least thats my experience.

 

[GoldenWheels]

I wonder if the AI giving you a tech for free might be influenced by the fact that you gave in to its requests when they asked for one? Or maybe it's a combination of this and its friendliness toward you?

I tried muscling a few civs here and there, from positions of great power...never worked.

Now the only time I demand anything from my allies is right after they have demanded a tech from me and I have acceded to their demand. Haven't been turned down yet.

 

[Unas]

Thank you all!

I'll try to keep your words in mind when playing next time.


Greetings,

Unas

 

[NKVD]

I miss Civ 2...

 

[Pantastic]

FYI, you're misuing the term 'blackmail', what you really mean is 'extortion'. Blackmail is threatening to reveal secret information about someone to get them to do something or pay something to you, extortion is threatening to use force against someone to get them to do something or pay something to you. "Give me that technology or I'm invading" is extortion, "give me that technology or I'm telling everyone about what you and Alexander did that night" would be blackmail.

In general, civs are very reluctant to give up techs in peace treaties or from demands becaue they make you so much stronger and it often doesn't benefit them. Why would should an AI civ care if you're going to spare their last city? It's not like they have a chance to win.

 

[weasel77066]

I also think wonders play a factor in tech trade... I have had impossible times trying to trade for a tech that allows a wonder. That is, untill AFTER the wonder is built. Ive tried to give three for one before and they have reused because they were working on the wonder it allowed. If the wonder is on the table, then its allowing tech becomes much cheaper.
All in all though, I dont usually tech trade cause I HATE giving up my tech. My current game Im behind in tech and tech trade is very difficult.

 

[Xanikk999]

FYI, you're misuing the term 'blackmail', what you really mean is 'extortion'. Blackmail is threatening to reveal secret information about someone to get them to do something or pay something to you, extortion is threatening to use force against someone to get them to do something or pay something to you. "Give me that technology or I'm invading" is extortion, "give me that technology or I'm telling everyone about what you and Alexander did that night" would be blackmail.

In general, civs are very reluctant to give up techs in peace treaties or from demands becaue they make you so much stronger and it often doesn't benefit them. Why would should an AI civ care if you're going to spare their last city? It's not like they have a chance to win.

The AI doesnt think from a "win game" point of view.

If it did it would trade with you even if he hates you, so he could get more techs. If the AI was playing logically it wouldnt really hate anyone but it would declare war on who was about to win. Doesnt work that way.

So the AI really should cave in if its about to get destroyed. Anyone in real life would.

 

[Pantastic]

So the AI really should cave in if its about to get destroyed.

No, it shouldn't, it's stupid behavior and the AI already does enough stupid stuff in the game. It's easy to see why it's dumb for the AI to give up a bunch of techs in order to keep a couple of pathetic cities. Imagine that one AI civ personality would give up all tech if you take all of their worthwile cities and another one wouldn't. All else being equal, you'd always choose to attack the one that would give you a ton of stuff rather than the one that would hold onto it.

Engaging in behavior that makes you a better target is dumb, and the AI is dumb enough as it is. AI civs are already juicy targets, there's no need to make them weaker; if you really want them weaker, just go down a difficulty level.

Anyone in real life would.

In real life, there aren't any leaders living for 6000 years and remaining undisputed ruler of their empire, so you're not going to find much real-world evidence of how civ leaders 'would' function. I think they'd be smart enough to learn some basic game theory sometime in those millennia, and realize that making yourself a good target is counterproductive behavior.