A question for my TOT-editing peeps

MikeLynch

Just a Baker Street Muse
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OK, I am currently using a highly modified version of TOT when I play Civ2 -- it has been fixed to more closely resemble Civ2MGE, graphics-wise, and I've made other customizations, including special events.

What I am wondering is if Civ3 (which is currently collecting dust on my desk) can be overhauled as I have done with TOT to make it more closely resemble Civ2 & TOT, and if so, what the best online resource is out there for me to get a "big picture" idea of how to modify Civ3.

I've asked similar questions in the Civ3 forum and been completely ignored. Any assistance would be appreciated! :cool:
 
Well, for starters there's a way of making Civ3 air units function like Civ2 air units but I can't remember the specifics (see pesloco;s thread on this in Civ3 'Tutorials...' forum).

Aside from that Civ3 isn't all that different. The graphics aren't bad although the default units are still a bit too cartoonish for my taste (still better than the default ToT sprites though).

Almost everything else in Civ3 is an improvement over Civ2.

The two main reasons why I don't mod it as much as Civ2 is because it tkaes a lot more work and there aren't any events.

The main reason for most peple not playing/buying it is the bad performance (epecially towards the endgame)--medium-end PCs just take WAY to long.

I think Civ3 stepped backwards enough don't you?
 
The main reason for most peple not playing/buying it is the bad performance (epecially towards the endgame)--medium-end PCs just take WAY to long.

I think Civ3 stepped backwards enough don't you?
Yes, and as they say, "if it ain't broke, don't fix it." I'm just sort of preparing for the inevitable day when I decide I want more units and I've already maxed out ToT's potential in that regard.

I suppose no one has done a complete Civ3 mod to make it look and play more like Civ2? It seems that downloading and exploring that, if it exists, would be a good start.
 
Mike, is your TOT mod pack available on-line, or would you consider sharing this? I have my own mod-pack that I designed ages ago for FW, and just copied that straight over to TOT with newer units graphics but without adding more units.
 
I have considered packaging a version of my ToT mod for public use, but it's one of those things that I'll only do when I have enough time to make it perfect, which is seldom. It has a "Standard" mode and a slowed-down "Epic" mode, in which each advance comes very slowly, things take longer to build, and you almost inevitably end up waging massive intercontinental wars with mere triremes and legions.

And speaking of lack of time, I read the Civ3 air unit thread indicated. The whole notion of modding Civ3 to resemble a souped-up Civ2 is starting to look prohibitively time-intensive.

I guess the only other question on the topic right now is this: are there ANY advantages to Civ3 over Civ2ToT for my purposes? I.e., are there more unit or tech slots in Civ3? can I actually design new types of city improvements? etc.
 
MikeLynch said:
I guess the only other question on the topic right now is this: are there ANY advantages to Civ3 over Civ2ToT for my purposes? I.e., are there more unit or tech slots in Civ3? can I actually design new types of city improvements? etc.
GOD, YES.

Units: You can mod pretty much everything--there are no hard-coded units (e.g. Engineers in Civ2). There are additional abilities such as bombardment.

Improvements: again, you can mod everything except that you can't give Improvements Wonder certain wonder characterisitcs (like 'all newly-created units are units veterans' for instance) but the characteristics are interchangable between wonders.

I've tried to find out what the limit for units and improvments is but with no success (you run out of unit icons in the Editor at 349 but you can still keep adding units). I'm presently working on a scen with--wait for it--800+ units in it!

Now, aside from bad performance and some other irritating things, Civ3 is superior to Civ2 in most ways. The BIG difference is that it has NO EVENTS! This means that your scens play out according to game rules so, unlike in Civ2 you can't just spawn a unit at a certain time (although you may be able to approximate this effect using the unit-building ability that was added to improvements/wonders in C3C). As a result, your historical scens, at least, will inevitably be lacking.

There are other little failings in Civ3 like there is no more terraforming (except for removing Forest tiles), no Farmland--if you can believe it there wasn't even an Airbase improvement in the original Civ3--no giving units via negotiation. In the Editor, you can't load units into vehicles like in Civ2, you can't use batch files to change rules/graphics/events like in Civ2 because the Civ3 program reads that information from the original scenario file instead of the saved game...and so on (I'm pretty sure I'm missing some other things--this is what critics meant when they said, one "step forward, two steps back" in reference to the original Civ3 release.)

So, in answer to your question: use Civ3 if you need none of the above (especially if your mod does not require events). Although it would be nice if you designed it for ToT anyway. ;)
 
You have renewed my interest in this concept. Especially since I'm not so much a scenario-maker as a modder -- I just change the game in certain ways, then play it that way all the time as my "base" game.

In Civ3 (or any of its expansions), can you:
- give *cities* via negotiation? to the ai???
- prolong the duration between advances (using scenario mode, I'd assume)?
- make some units only buildable by certain civs?
- make some units cost more to build than Wonders?
- change the movement bonus given by railroads so it's not "infinite"?
- set any unit to have certain settler-style abilities (roads, forts) but not others (founding)? I know there are Worker units in the default Civ3, but...
 
- give *cities* via negotiation? to the ai???
YES...and to human players as well. ;)

- prolong the duration between advances (using scenario mode, I'd assume)?
YES.

- make some units only buildable by certain civs?
YES.

- make some units cost more to build than Wonders?
YES.

- change the movement bonus given by railroads so it's not "infinite"?
:( Unfortunately, this was something that they just refused to change...much to most people's annoyance--but you can't change that in ToT either.

What you can do is specify what type of terrain units ignore (i.e. units treat all squares with that terrain as if it has movement cost of 1).

Additionally, there is an 'Impassable to Wheeled' terrain flag that, when checked, prevents units with 'Wheeled' flag from entering those squares (default is Forest and Mountains I think--vehicles cannot enter without Road).

- set any unit to have certain settler-style abilities (roads, forts) but not others (founding)? I know there are Worker units in the default Civ3, but...
YES...to all (one of the biggest improvements IMO--Settling and building can be divided into separate units; should have been that way for Civ2 though).
 
Oh BTW, I'm assuming you're using C3C, if not get it--it's a big jump from PTW where modding is concerned.

Note that one thing Civ3 doesn't have is multiple mapsbut from what you're describing, it doesn't sound like you need such a feature...talk about me being a salesperson for Civ3, jeez!

Anyway, check out the Editor and you can see for yourself.
 
I do not yet have the expansions, but I plan to get them if I continue this project. I think all I have is "vanilla" Civ3.

I've been doing some additional research and I think I now understand most of the Civ3 unit-graphic-editing process -- looks like I can indeed have non-animated, Civ2-style units, though the palettes might give me trouble.

Also, I was amazed to see the depth of the Civ3 editor Infogrames provided. Never even found it before last night! Am I right in thinking that, from a rules perspective, this basically eliminates the need to manually edit the Civ3 equivalent of rules.txt?

One big thing I've noticed is the alteration of ZoC in Civ3. Is the lack of Civ2-style ZoCs as big of a strategic factor as I think it is? And the new Civ3 method of ZoC -- I dunno, that sounds lame to me. O Salesperson, sell me on this, for in all other ways I am nearly sold. :)

P.S. -- You're right, I don't care much about multiple maps. I spent a lot of time modding that whole thing and I barely ever use them anyway.
 
I do not yet have the expansions, but I plan to get them if I continue this project.
Forget PTW--It sucks big-time. Get Conquests (C3C).

I think all I have is "vanilla" Civ3.
I pity you. ;)

Am I right in thinking that, from a rules perspective, this basically eliminates the need to manually edit the Civ3 equivalent of rules.txt?
Yes.

One big thing I've noticed is the alteration of ZoC in Civ3. Is the lack of Civ2-style ZoCs as big of a strategic factor as I think it is?
Well, the Civ3 system uses a system of 'free-shots' at enemy units that move form one adjacent square to another, as you probably already know. It takes off some health which is the penalty for bypassing a foe. Thing is, the unit is still free to keep moveing hence you literally have to have a wll of units to stop the enemy from getting past. The AI is set to do this A LOT, mainly to get at your resources so it can pillage the road links or to get to a square with better defensive terrain (or to settle a gap in your borders when at peace--ZoC effect doesn't take place when at peace).
Another thing is that the free-shot is random: it may or may not takeplace. If it doesn't, it's like not having ZoC at all (i.e. enemy unit walks past with no penalty whatsoever--rather irritating since this is a TBS game and you can't do anythig about it until your turn).
The one advantage is that ships have ZoC where as in Civ2 they do not.
I think the reason why ZoC system was changed is because it was to easy to block other players' access to parts of the map at choke-points.

The original idea is that it compensates for the fact that you can't move your untis to intercept the enemy unit so the ZoC focres the enemy unit to engage your units. The Civ3 system is really not a solution but just--again--1 step forward and one back: the two systems should have been used with the Civ3 system reserved only for artillery units IMO.

Personally, I like the Civ2 system better--besides, you always have the choice of using the 'Ignore ZoC' unit flag.

O Salesperson, sell me on this, for in all other ways I am nearly sold.
Okay that's it...CIV3 SUCKS, CIV2 RULES!!! :D

Seriously, the main downsides to Civ3 are bad performance, lack of events and a few other minor things that Civ2 has (the fact that Civ2 air units function like any other unit has both advantages over Civ3 system and disadvantages--namely that they can be blocked by ground units; this is probably the biggest change in Civ3). Aside from that, Civ3 is--and well should be--better. I don't play it much because I can't stand the wait time and as a modder, the lack of a scripting language offends me...not to mention that I'm pissed that the game was left unfixed as there are still bugs that need to be addressed yet as far as Firaxis is concerned, Civ3 is a done deal. (Does this story remind you of anything?)

Of course, if we get the Civ2 source code relased then you may yet gain a renewed interest in the game. (Vanilla game may eventually be re-worked to be more like what people have been wanting since Civ1 but never quite got, so your project could be applicable. Civ3 isn't really much of a jump where the general game concept is concerened--actually not really a jump at all in that way as it is almost identical--it's just that it has features that really should've been Civ2...not to mention that awsome editor.)

P.S. -- You're right, I don't care much about multiple maps. I spent a lot of time modding that whole thing and I barely ever use them anyway.
That feature isn't really applicable to the vanilla game (although is used in TOT extended original game) but it offers a lot of options for modding.
 
Forget PTW--It sucks big-time. Get Conquests (C3C).
Really? Even if I'm a completist? I am under the impression that Conquests does not include PTW -- that's correct, isn't it?

(Does this story remind you of anything?)
:lol:

Civ3 isn't really much of a jump where the general game concept is concerened--actually not really a jump at all in that way as it is almost identical
I'm noticing that. The changes seem to be not as "deep" as I expected.

Except:
No sentry/sleep mode.
WTH?!?! They don't mention this in the "What's Changed" chapter of the manual, and, um, gee, it strikes me as a pretty flippin' big change!! Like, bigger than the ZoC change! I'm still going to mod Civ3 to resemble Civ2 more, but I gotta say, I think it will irritate me to no end when I actually start playing.

Otherwise, though, I have successfully made a couple of Civ2-style Civ3 units. I just removed all the frames and made the animations effectively nonexistent. I'm finding that it takes me about half an hour to an hour to get one Civ2-style Civ3 unit working right, mainly b/c of having to line up all the different actions they take (which are not all disabled by the Preferences menu, either) so the unit doesn't twitch. Curse Firaxis for trying to make Civ feel more AoE-like! :mad:

One critical question: is it possible to keep playing after victory with Civ3 or any of its expansions?
 
Disregard what I said about Sentry -- I see that one of the Civ3 patches took care of it. Wow, I have an old version.
 
I am under the impression that Conquests does not include PTW -- that's correct, isn't it?
C3C includes all the PTW features but not the content (PTW stuff you can get off the net anyway). PTW has a couple of new units: Guerilla and Medieval Infantry but you can DL those from someone. Your money is better spent elsewhere--assuming you could even find PTW in the first place (not what you would call a 'hot item').

Curse Firaxis for trying to make Civ feel more AoE-like!
Yeah, it would be nice to be able to just use images--not to mention bloody faster! It would have cost them nothing to add that. (Would've saved CPU time as well AFAIK.)
Just to be fair: the unit animations can add a good feel to a scen if done properly. You should check out the Civ3 Scenario Creation forum and the Civ3 Downloads/Units section to get a better idea...just remember to come back to the Civ2 forums after you're done! :)

One critical question: is it possible to keep playing after victory with Civ3 or any of its expansions?
I'm pretty sure you can but I've never had the patience to get that far.

Wow, I have an old version.
Yes, the patches are essential. The C3C 1.22 patch adds quite a bit.
 
Yeah, it would be nice to be able to just use images--not to mention bloody faster! It would have cost them nothing to add that. (Would've saved CPU time as well AFAIK.)
Exactly my hope for my mod. I intend to start experimenting with simply deleting animations for certain unit actions (like attacking) and seeing what happens when I try to run the program. :mischief:

For fortifying, I've copied the old Civ2 wooden log thingy on top of the unit and made that into a 1-frame animation. I took a similar approach with worker actions, putting a little letter over their shoulder representing what they're in the middle of -- R, M, I, etc.
 
Andrew Livings said:
Mike, is your TOT mod pack available on-line, or would you consider sharing this? I have my own mod-pack that I designed ages ago for FW, and just copied that straight over to TOT with newer units graphics but without adding more units.

Not sure if this is of interest Andrew, but this is what I'm using for vanilla ToT unit gfx. I may have changed some of the later slots from the original rules, can't remeber.

Anyone else care to share their units?
 

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MikeLynch said:
For fortifying, I've copied the old Civ2 wooden log thingy on top of the unit and made that into a 1-frame animation.
I forgot that you can set frames to 1. That's a good idea. (Would be interested to know what happens you eliminate certain animations--I don't really work with Civ3 units that much...there are other players who can do that for me. ;) )
 
What happens when you eliminate animations is the game crashes while loading -- UNLESS you remove the references to those animations from the .INI file for that unit. But I'm starting to talk in Civ3speak in a Civ2 forum!

Suffice it to say that my project is moving forward, albeit slowly, and an announcement will be made in this forum when it's complete (months and months from now), as my whole purpose is to make Civ3 more Civ2-like, while still exploiting Civ3's useful features.

Of course, first I have to conquer this gosh-darned problem with trying to rename the Spearman as "Phalanx" .... grr!!!
Ah, modding: for when your blood pressure just isn't high enough.
 
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