A question for you Egyptologists out there....

[utro43]

i was wondering if perhaps one of you history buffs could help lil Utro out....
as you know i've got a real dandy of a mod in the works, and i have even been
play testing it! this one will get finished up i hope in time for the competition
this month (i wanna get it out b4 Anno Domini otherwise nobody will play it lol ).

but anyway, my question is:

Does anyone know who the Nubian king ruling from Kerma was during the
reigns of Amose I of Egypt, and Khamudi of the Hyksos?

it would have been around 1530/1540 BCE.

i found through my research that Khamudi was the Hyksos King,
but i really don't know who the king in Kerma was. I'd like to have
his proper name, and not just a Nubian name (Shabaka) like what i have now.

also, i'm contemplating trying to fit Kush in this mix, making it a 4 nation game,
but i don't know that role the Kuhorsehockeyes played in this power struggle.....


really if we can't find out the exact name of the king in kerma,
the mod will still go through....it's just it'd be nice to maintain accuracy.

your thoughts appreciated.

 

[Ozymandias]

Sorry, Amigo.

From: http://www.dignubia.org/bookshelf/rulers.php

"The rulers of ancient Nubia ("Kush") are not as well known as those of Egypt.

Very few of the names of the Nubian kings who lived before 1,550 BCE (Before Common Era, the same as BC) are known. This is because the Nubians then did not use writing. The two or three surviving kings' names from this period exist only because the Egyptians chose to write them down for us.

From about 1,550 to 1,100 BCE, there were no native Nubian kings. [emphasis added] The pharaohs of Egypt were the kings of Nubia.

About 1,100 BC, the Egyptian kings withdrew from Nubia, and native kings again took over the country. But since they did not use writing either, we know neither their names nor anything about them until about 780 BCE."

-Oz

 

[utro43]

hmmmm....
the thing is there WAS a king ruling from Kerma, and it appears that he was
the king of the nubians at that time because the Hyksos king (the one before
Khamudi) send messangers inviting him to join the Hyksos to war on the
weakend egyptians, then ruled by the Thebian kings.

the message said basicly:
"Khamose is busy with me here....we will divide up the towns of Egypt....
Come north and Nubia will rejoice."

it was when these messangers were intercepted, and Khamose had proof
of what the Hyksos were planning that he was able to rally his nobles to support
an all out assult on the Hyksos.

what i would love is to know who that nubian king that was in Kerma was.

 

[Ozymandias]

what i would love is to know who that nubian king that was in Kerma was.

Sadly, much of history is indeed lost to us in "the lone and level sands".

Best,

Oz

 

[utro43]

yes....
that's the trouble.

there was a book someone mentioned,
i think it was called "Black Pharaoh", it's historical fiction i believe....
it's all about that time period, maybe somebody know what the
Nubian king was named in the book, and I could use it....
or just keep what i already have.

Shabakka is an alright name.
however....this discovery that the Nubians didn't write is going to
force me to have to change some techs around for the Nubians.

 

[Keroro]

The Black Pharaoh - by Christian Jacq. I don't remember much of the book now, but IIRC the Black Pharaoh was both the leader of the Nubians and of the Egyptians. He was the rightful Pharaoh and he swept the Asiatics from the Nile Delta. Sorry I can't remember more.

 

[LouLong]

The Black pharaoh refers to a much later time, when the Lybians had invaded Egypt and the clergy then moved south to Nubia from which they later (Nubians/Egyptians) reconquered Egypt.

 

[ImhotepII]

hm well kush, is the name used for nubia since the middle kingdom.
when nubia was under egyptian control it was governed by the "viceking of kush".

to fit in kush as 4th civ you could use the area from kerma up to abu (elephantine) as kingdom of kush, wich yould represent the "kerma culture" that had this teritory under its influence at the refering time period.

now nubia itself would have to take the rest of the nile till the southern end.
you could take napata as capital, wich would be not correct, for napata is the later nubian capital (from 750 till 300 BC)

but with this you will still have "troublemaking" nubians when the egyptian empire expands to the south and takes in "kush".


as for kings...

sorry but i`m also not sure if there is one mentioned in the egyptian inscribtions....
the "People of Kerma" often raided the southern egyptian provinces even up to el-kab (Nekhab) but i know of no kings name....

 

[Keroro]

The Black pharaoh refers to a much later time, when the Lybians had invaded Egypt and the clergy then moved south to Nubia from which they later (Nubians/Egyptians) reconquered Egypt.

Oops , that's how much I pay attention to Christian Jacq's books I'm afraid. However, he has done one (maybe a series) on the Hyskos invasion, I remember reading it. It was OK, worth looking up if you're doing a scenario on the timeframe.

 

[Plotinus]

Well, when making my African scenario I ran into the problem that we don't know the name of a single ruler of Alwah. Ever. Or, indeed, the names of anyone else from Alwah. Ever. Or, come to that, the names of any of Alwah's cities other than the capital. At all. I had to use a bit of imagination for that one.

 

[Keroro]

Well, when making my African scenario I ran into the problem that we don't know the name of a single ruler of Alwah. Ever. Or, indeed, the names of anyone else from Alwah. Ever. Or, come to that, the names of any of Alwah's cities other than the capital. At all. I had to use a bit of imagination for that one.

I'm having similar problems - indeed I had this problem with the Nubians in Alexander's Conquests. That bit of land is notorious for being fought over and owned by a range of different Kingdoms. Using a God's name or a folk hero's name can work OK.

A possibility -

Dedun (or Dedwen) was a Nubian god worshipped since at least 2400BC. There is much uncertainty about his original nature, especially since he was depicted as a lion, but the earliest known information indicates that he had become a god of incense. Since incense was, at this point in history, an extremely expensive luxury commodity, and Nubia was the source of much of it, he was quite an important god. The wealth that the trade in incense delivered to Nubia lead to him being the god of prosperity, and wealth in particular.

However, he is said to have been associated with a fire that threatened to destroy the other gods, leading many Nubiologists to consider that there may have been a great fire, at a shared complex of temples, to different gods, that started in a temple of Dedun, though there are no candidate events known for this.

Although mentioned, as being a Nubian god, in the pyramid texts, there is no evidence that he was worshipped anywhere north of Aswan. Nethertheless, in the Middle Kingdom, during the Egyptian rule over Kush, as god of incense, and so associated with funerary rites, Dedun was said, by the Egyptians, to be protector of deceased (Nubian) rulers.

?
The best I could find so far.

 

[Rob (R8XFT)]

I don't know if this is any help to you, but there was a Nubian called Aata who rebelled against Ahmose I when he campaigned in Nubia, though this was after Khamudi had been defeated (it seems to have been about 6 years after the Hyksos were ousted).

 

[utro43]

hey....
that's really useful!

Ahmose is the main figure of this mod.

this is great! thanks!

 

[Rob (R8XFT)]

Additionally, an anti-Theban Egyptian called Tetian roused Nubian rebels against Ahmose, so maybe that could be a wonder for the Nubians, creating a Nubian rebel every 5 turns?

Other wonder/building suggestions:
Turquoise mines : +50% trade, +2 happy faces
Horus road : +1 trade in every trade producing square
Limestone quarries : +50% production, but requires limestone in city radius
Possibility of "forbidden palace" at Buhen?
Glassmaker's house : increases luxury trade
Temple of Karnak : +2 happy faces in every city on the continent


Hey, I might use some of these in Anno Domini !!

 

[utro43]

w00t!
so many suggestions and just when i was actually getting near to finishing this!
lol so many ideas to work with!

i really appreciate those suggestions, because i wanted to make custom techs,
and buildings for the Nubians. i got allot of stuff from the classic Anno, and some buildings
from Desert and Mountian,which were a big help.

thanks a bundle for all the help.

 

[ImhotepII]

hey great information R8XFT, i`m also always interested in things on egypt.
could you please tell me where yyou found that info? it`s not easy to find good data for that time.


i also specially like the idea of the buildings you suggested.

the horus road was of special importance for the hyksos as well, so maybe it should be their wonder and ahmose can capture it at tjaru (sile), wich was the west end of the road leading to gaza.

the turquiese mines at the sinai peninsula (serabit el chadim)have been used since the middle kingdom if i remember right.

glasmaker and limestone quarry are also very neat ideas for special production boosts.

the forbidden palace wonder i´d dublicate, dunno how its done though...
for one should be placed at men-nefer (memphis) wich was always one of the main ruling centers.
and one as you sugested could be at buhen or even mirgissa, for the old middle kingdom fortresses were reoccupied and formed into new cities.

and the karnak temple would be a must of course .)

depending on how far utro streches the timeline even the luxor temple would fit it and many more....

 

[Rob (R8XFT)]

hey great information R8XFT, i`m also always interested in things on egypt.
could you please tell me where you found that info? it`s not easy to find good data for that time.

From the east wall in Ahmose-son-of-Abana's tomb actually . He was an admiral in the navy at the time of the mod.
There's 31 columns of info on that wall; they talk about Ahmose's youth, the war with the Hyksos and the campaign in Nubia. He mentions Aata and Teti-an...

Want a link to some info? I bet you do !!

Here it is:
http://www.osirisnet.net/tombes/el_kab/ahmes/e_ahmes.htm

 

[ImhotepII]

damn i knew about admiral ahmoses tomb at el-kab,
but it didn`t even cross my mind to look there for infos on the nubian campains

glad someone knew where to look

i think utro could perfectly use Aata as ruler for the history has to be bend a bit to fit into civ3, and as you already sugested Teti-an could give a special rebel unit or even a generated army.

and thanks for the link!

 

[Rob (R8XFT)]

damn i knew about admiral ahmoses tomb at el-kab,
but it didn`t even cross my mind to look there for infos on the nubian campains

glad someone knew where to look

i think utro could perfectly use Aata as ruler for the history has to be bend a bit to fit into civ3, and as you already sugested Teti-an could give a special rebel unit or even a generated army.

and thanks for the link!

I agree it's bending the rules a little, but we've certainly done that before !! The thing is, at least he's a ruler contemporary with Ahmose I and whilst he was defeated six years after the Hyksos were kicked out, he must have been around at that time too (though maybe not as prominent).

 

[utro43]

exactly! and it seem's we were thinking about admiral ahmoses tomb
about the same time lol! (i posted it in the other forum).

does anyone know if there's an african army unit?
actually, we could make good use of an egyptian one too!

i mean, there's a 'Roman Army' unit, we need an egyptian and african one!